2021-08-10 04:27:47 GMT+0000

2021-08-10

Pre-Christian Jewish Ideas of a Suffering and Dying Messiah

This work is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution 4.0 International License.

by Neil Godfrey

In preparing my next post on Nanine Charbonnel’s Jésus-Christ, sublime figure de papier I remarked that I had posted a few times along the lines of a theme her work explores: the idea of a suffering and dying messiah among Jewish circles prior to the Christian era. I began to list those posts but found way too many to mention there so I’m posting the list separately here.

Posts addressing the question of the Jewishness of a suffering and dying messiah:

How Isaiah’s Suffering Servant and Isaac’s Sacrifice Together Prepared for Jesus Christ 2020-08-14
Horbury Argued Similarly: Jewish Messianic Ideas Explain Christianity 2019-03-02
A Suffering Messiah Before Christianity? — the other side of the question 2019-01-20
Questioning the Claim of a Pre-Christian Suffering Messiah 2019-01-20
Why a Saviour Had to Suffer and Die? Martyrdom Beliefs in Pre-Christian Times 2019-01-04
Summing Up a Case for Pre-Christian Exegesis of Dying and Suffering Messiahs by J. Jeremias (8) 2018-12-19
The 10th Testimony for a Dying Messiah Before Christianity (7) 2018-12-18
Rabbinic Traditions that the Messiah was to Suffer? (6) 2018-12-17
Jewish Pre-Christian Prophecies of Suffering Servant Messiah (5) 2018-12-16
Jewish Understandings of a Suffering Messiah before the Christian Era (4) 2018-12-15
Evidence of a Suffering Messiah Concept before Christianity (1) 2018-12-14
A Pre-Christian Jewish Suffering Messiah (2) 2018-12-13
Evidence of a Suffering Messiah Concept before Christianity (1) 2018-12-11
How Early Did Some Jews Believe in a Slain Messiah son of Joseph? 2017-04-19
Suffering and Dying Messiahs: Typically Jewish Beliefs 2017-04-16
How Did Daniel Understand Isaiah’s Suffering Servant? 2015-11-12
Isaiah’s Suffering Servant Before Christianity 2015-11-10
Suffering Messiah Is a Very Jewish Idea 2015-08-26
From Israel’s Suffering (Isaiah’s Servant) to Atoning Human/Messianic Sacrifice (Daniel) 2014-11-24
The Influence of Isaiah’s Suffering Servant Before Christianity 2014-11-23
Jewish Expectations of a Slain Messiah — the Early Evidence 2014-11-08
Messiah to be Killed in Pre-Christian Jewish Expectation — the Late Evidence 2014-11-04
The Dying Messiah Before Christianity 2014-09-14
The Evolution of the Son of Man, the Human & Divine Messiah 2014-07-08
So some Jews did expect a suffering Messiah? 2013-01-22
How Could a Crucified Jesus Be Identified With God? 2013-01-12
Does the notion of a crucified messiah need a historical easter experience? 2011-04-05
Jewish scriptures as inspiration for a Slain Messiah 2010-07-26
Jesus displaces Isaac: midrashic creation of the biblical Jesus . . . (Offering of Isaac . . . #6) 2008-06-06

Let’s add for good measure our recent post on William Wrede’s view of Paul and some earlier Vridar posts that may serve as good companions of that one:

Only One Explanation: Paul Believed in a Divine Christ “Before Jesus” 2021-08-07
How Paul Found Christ Crucified – “on a Tree” – In the Scriptures 2020-06-12
Jesus supplants Isaac — the contribution of Paul 2008-06-26

"For an excellent example of generally high-quality scholarship by someone who isn’t a biblical studies professor, see Neil Godfrey’s work posted on the website vridar.org."

— Tom Dykstra, – JOCABS 2015
"These reviews of yours are so bloody weird!"

— James Crossley, – April 2010
"I think you have a high quality blog that provides a positive public service by discussing academic topics within a wider audience."

— Russell Gmirkin, – October 2016
"Neil Godfrey and Tim Widowfield, who both write at Vridar . . . happen to be some of the most astute and well-read amateurs you can read on the internet on the subject of biblical historicity. I call them amateurs only for the reason that they don’t have, so far as I know, advanced degrees in the subject. But I have often been impressed with their grasp of logic and analysis of scholarship. I don’t always agree with them, but I respect their work."

— Richard Carrier, – March 2014
"Vridar is consistently thought-provoking, well-informed, and asking the right questions. There are intelligent, thoughtful comments and commenters regularly offering productive discussion. Books and publications are covered with a range of perspectives with attempts at fair and accurate representation of others’ arguments and content (where there are occasional and inevitable missteps on that I notice Neil making corrections and apologies where warranted, which wins points with me). Please carry on."

— Gregory Doudna, – January 2019
"I find your blog most interesting and appreciate your ongoing effort to keep to the evidence for the issues discussed!"

-- Thomas L. Thompson, - April 2020
"Note that I do not use the term ‘amateur’ pejoratively. . . . In fact, Godfrey is extremely well read and his librarian skills have brought many important academic works to my attention."

Raphael Lataster - August 2019
"Thanks for this detailed interaction! I’ll try to offer something more substantial than 'Thank you' in response at some point, but I didn’t want to wait . . . to express appreciation for your detailed interaction with what I’ve written!"

— James McGrath, – June 2009
It is worth saying another word of appreciation here for Neil Godfrey's effort to make Bruno Bauer accessible in English.

-- Peter Kirby, - May 2023
"Many thanks for this post, and for the quality of your blog."

— Philippe Wajdenbaum, – November 2018
"Neil, You’ve done a clean job in your posting on ‘Jesus the Healer’. It reflects well on you. Best, John"

— John Moles, September 2011 (personal email)
"I always enjoy reading Neil’s blog because I think that he is careful, thorough, intellectually fair, and honest."

— April DeConick, – November 2007
"I still wonder at all the material you turn out for Vridar. The more I read your stuff (and I still do, of course), the more I realize how much we all owe you. Your voice is unique."

— Earl Doherty, November 2013 (personal email)
"Neil, for what it is worth it is obvious to me that if you had earlier in life tracked into a graduate program at one of the world’s leading research universities you would be one of the world’s formidable ones. You are doing essentially the same quality now (apart from the philology and languages) except mostly sticking to commenting on others’ work as informed comment/discussion."

— Gregory Doudna, – January 2019
"I want to say here that this site is so resourceful and highly on top of the most modern scholarship in the areas discussed here. . . I know of no other site which offers a wide range of topics related to careful critical analysis of historically and scripturally related issues."

-- Martin Lewadny, - March 2009
"I have found your website really valuable as an interpretive filter for Biblical scholarship, especially the origins of Christianity and historicity of Jesus issue. Your clarity of expression, fair comments and personal insights are much valued. I refer to your site frequently as yet more names and publications pop up requiring an academic critique and helpful recommendations for book purchases. So, please continue to delve deeply and share this intellectual sustenance with your grateful readers."

— Mary Booker, – February 2020 (personal email)
"Thanks much for this book review. I think it expands, and contributes to, the effort in honouring Thomas that we with Lukasz originally had in mind with this volume. Best, Emanuel"

-- Emanuel Pfoh - August 2020
"By the way, my thanks to Neil for an ongoing superb job of exposing Jim’s review for what it is: a farcical and none too effective exercise in mythicism assassination, nothing to do with rational, let alone unbiased, scholarship. I’m also happy to see even Jim giving Neil credit where credit is due."

— Earl Doherty, June 2011
"Fantastic. I’m so glad you’re helping to spread these ideas!"

Nancy Fraser - June 2019 (personal email)
https://earlywritings.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=145080#p145080
Neil made a good synthesis of the work without being an “expert” of the field.

-- Enrico Tuccinardi, - October 2022
"Here I give an admittedly subjective short list, in random order, of useful, high level and regularly updated weblogs on the study of the Old Testament . . . ‘Vridar: Musings on biblical studies, politics, religion, ethics, human nature, tidbits from science’ (http://vridar.org/) by Neil Godfrey"

-- Klaas Spronk, - Bibliotheca Orientalis LXXI, 3/4 (2014)
Congratulations, Vridar, . . . I declare, Vridar, your own hard work translating Bruno Bauer will make a major difference in future studies of Bruno Bauer and the evolution of Hegel’s philosophy of religion.

-- Paul Trejo, - April 2023
"Very good. This post is going straight to the March 2016 Biblical Studies Carnival."

—N.T. Wrong, – March 2016
"Neil, this is actually rather useful. Good job."

— R. Joseph Hoffmann, – June 2014
"I’d like to thank you for this very nice representation of what I was trying to show in the book. It’s always gratifying when a reader zeroes in on exactly those aspects I thought were most interesting and most central to my argument. Thank you for this careful and engaged reading of my work – much appreciated!"

— Eva Mroczek, – June 2017
This is superb work, Neil, and reminds me of Albert Schweitzer’s work from a century ago. . . . .

I commend you for being the first to even TRY to translate Bruno Bauer’s brilliant Kritik der Evangelien und Geschichte ihres Ursprungs, which is now more than 150 years old.

. . . . .Thank you for your historic effort.

-- Paul Trejo, M.A., - November 2022
Editor, An English Edition of Bruno Bauer’s 1843 Christianity Exposed
"Thanks for your very elaborate review! I realized that I hadn’t added your blog to our blogroll. This oversight has been corrected. Looking forward to more segments."

— Anthony Le Donne, – September 2009
"I’ve even been cited by atheists with approval (which I really don’t know how to take, so thanks, I think, but I’m not sure, Vrider (even though I feel like I need to take a shower now))."

-- Jim West, – September 2010

LC on Palestinians, written out of their rights to the land – compared with a new history: “It’s another instance of “terra nullius”” Nov 17, 12:24
LC on Are Historical Sources “Innocent Until Proven Guilty”?: “Thanks for your various clarifications and further comments. You ask above about literary/textual critical study of various texts. What I…” Nov 17, 12:15
Chrissy Hansen on Jesus Mythicism and Historical Knowledge, Part 1: Historical Facts and Probability: “That’s what I wonder. Whe I published my first paper on the subject of the Raglan archetype solo in 2021,…” Nov 17, 07:50
Neil Godfrey on Jesus Mythicism and Historical Knowledge, Part 1: Historical Facts and Probability: “Just a couple of points … Would it matter that the Jesus narrative is modelled largely on both the Greco-Roman…” Nov 17, 07:02
Chrissy Hansen on Jesus Mythicism and Historical Knowledge, Part 1: Historical Facts and Probability: “I think it is also observable just how problematic the probability approach is when we consider also just observable problems.…” Nov 17, 04:18
Neil Godfrey on Jesus Mythicism and Historical Knowledge, Part 1: Historical Facts and Probability: “I have updated the post to make explicit what I only implied in the original — to draw attention to…” Nov 16, 19:39
Neil Godfrey on Jesus Mythicism and Historical Knowledge, Part 1: Historical Facts and Probability: “I disagree — and I have attempted to explain why. We can be absolutely certain that there was a World…” Nov 16, 05:15
Steve Ruis on Jesus Mythicism and Historical Knowledge, Part 1: Historical Facts and Probability: “Hah, “And again, in pointing out that historians can never be absolutely certain about any ‘substantive claim.'” This is true…” Nov 16, 03:40
Neil Godfrey on Are Historical Sources “Innocent Until Proven Guilty”?: “Yes indeed — though my own preference is to view the biblical historical narrative of the kingdoms of Israel and…” Nov 12, 22:58

Day: August 10, 2021

2021-08-10

Pre-Christian Jewish Ideas of a Suffering and Dying Messiah

This work is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution 4.0 International License.

by Neil Godfrey

Like this:

Share this:

Like this: