Hi all. I have neglected checking the comments for a few days and am trying to catch up now. If there is anything I have missed that you might have wanted me to respond to, and I haven’t done that, just let me know here. Thanks.
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14 thoughts on “Comments”
• Neil, have you previously blogged on dating Mark—post Antiquities and as a source?
Comment by Gregory Doudna—20 January 2019:
Yes, I saw that comment exchange, thanks. I have posted before on dating GMark in the second century and I have at times wondered about a post Josephan Antiquities date. There are some things here and there that make me wonder, but the ideas are too insubstantial for me to post further about them or to comment.
My understanding of the McAdon’s statement was that it was more of a discussion starter than a settled argument as such.
Is it not likely that the event of the John the Baptist arrest and execution was known more widely than merely from Josephus? I suspect such an event would be more widely known. But then we have Ted Weeden’s observation of the similarities between the Jesus son of Ananias and the gospel Jesus; and other overlaps here and there (someone mentioned Banus as another instance) . . . . and the focus on crucifixions…. lots of questions.
I’m also in two minds over the historicity of John the Baptist (or was it Hyrcanus — I will wait to read Greg’s article).
I simply don’t know enough about the evidence — I’d want to do a very detailed analysis of the various texts (not only Josephus and Mark) but even then I suspect I would be as unsure as when I started.
— And how confident can we be that the death of John the Baptist story in Mark was part of the original composition of the gospel anyway? (& despite my posts on Noam’s book I would need to do my study before I am really confident that the passage was a Josephan interpolation.)
This is interesting http://sckool.org/marks-sources-in-mark-1-15-and-6-14-29-paul-josephus-and-the-s.html
In favour of a later date for the Gospel of Mark is the gospel’s theme of persecution. If Domitian (81 to 96) was responsible for restoring and enforcing the imperial cult (emperor worship) then we also have some background support for Haenchen’s view that this was the “abomination that makes desolate” that was a constant worry for Christians: https://vridar.org/2018/03/10/the-abomination-of-desolation-in-mark-13-what-did-the-reader-need-to-understand/
I’m not sure if by “If Domitian (81 to 96) was responsible for restoring and enforcing the imperial cult” you’re referring to the supposed Domitian persecution, but –
Domitian and the Persecution That Didn’t Happen, by Catholic author Jimmy Akin, about –
‘Was Roman emperor Domitian really the great persecutor of Christians?’ by Mark Wilson, in turn based on Brian W. Jones’ The Emperor Domitian (New York: Routledge, 1992) –
And Mark Wilson notes –
No, no. I’m not talking about persecution of Christians per se. I accept that the Eusebian account is fiction there. I am talking about the enforcing of the imperial cult. Check the post I linked to re Haenchen’s argument. That’s where I’m coming from.
Neil Godfrey (10 February 2007). “Little Apocalypse and the Bar Kochba Revolt”. Vridar.
Cf. Theissen, Gerd. Lokalkolorit und Zeitgeschichte in den Evangelien. Ein Beitrag zur Geschichte der synoptischen Tradition. 2. Aufl. Vandenhoeck & Ruprecht, Göttingen 1992, ISBN 3-525-53522-8.
The fewer the number of textual fragments that under no circumstances can be fitted intot the presumed context and, as such, must be excluded as later interpolations, the better the final result.
Yes and no. I think we tend to have a bias for simple solutions and that is not on the whole a bad thing. But we do see some works that attempt to explain a text as we have it as being created just so by a single author from the start, yet such a simple explanation does sometimes require a little more imagination to make it work than a hypothesis that accepts a document has come to us through various stages of redaction.
The best approach all round is humility, always being prepared to revise one’s opinion or judgement and being open to discussing and addressing new and old evidence and arguments and requiring them to justify themselves.
There are two very important utube presentations on Mark’s Gospel by Willi Braun which date Mark to the second century. Excellent presentations as I recall. Don’t recall the url exactly but these are worth watching. You might also want to check out the work of William Arnal. Both of these scholars are Canadians.
Cheers my fellow bloggers
Kok, Michael J. (2015). The Gospel on the Margins: The Reception of Mark in the Second Century. Augsburg Fortress Publishers. p. 13. ISBN 9781451490220.
Cf. Braun, Willi (2010). “The First Shall be Last: The Gospel of Mark after the First Century”. In Pachis, Panayotis; Wiebe, Donald. Chasing Down Religion: In the Sights of History and the Cognitive Sciences : Essays in Honor of Luther H. Martin. Barbounakis Publications. pp. 41–57. ISBN 9789602671535.
See: “Prof. Dr. Willi Braun: When and Why Did the Gospel of Mark Become a Christian Text?“. YouTube. RelWis Hannover. 4 July 2013.
• Braun asserts that gMark has no value as a 1st century historical source.
Braun, Willi (2017). “Christian Origins and the Gospel of Mark”. In Führding, Steffen. Method and Theory in the Study of Religion: Working Papers from Hannover. BRILL. pp. 153–175. ISBN 9789004347878.
I only see one video by Braun, but at two different sites: one at youtube and the other at biblicalstudiesonline. https://biblicalstudiesonline.wordpress.com/tag/willi-braun/ = https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2-tLAjLz4Mo
Is there another one?
Willi Braun, CSBS 2017 Presidential Address YouTube
Thanks everyone for getting more specific about the Willi Braun material I referred to.
Some good stuff there!