2026-03-06

“I am the LORD who says the King of Persia shall carry out all my purpose” — Isaiah 44

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by Neil Godfrey

normal island news 280x300Persia, Iran, the Orient — images of cruelty, despotism, oppression and suffering of the masses beneath their tyrannical overlords, extremists, bloodthirsty, unnaturally libidinous, filled with murderous rage against the modern outside world that they cannot understand, deceitful, conniving, greedy, bribers, disloyal, cowardly, servile, childish even …. that is the Orientalist view that still today pervades so much of mainstream media, including much of the mainstream news in recent years and months relating to Iran. In one image they are called out in their millions by their blood-crazed leaders to chant in the streets “Death to America”; in the next image they are again out in the streets by their millions but this time trying to overthrow their tyrant rulers and being slaughtered in their tens of thousands. Maybe we are missing something here. Maybe the images we are being shown are not what they appear to be. Maybe they are both being framed by Orientalist perspectives. Maybe we should pause and dig a little to learn about the messages pushed into our homes and phones.

But Iran is not Saudi Arabia or Afghanistan. Its Islam is not of the Wahhabist variety so infamous in Saudi Arabia. The Taliban hate Iran. The world’s most deadly terrorist organizations are materially supported today by both Israel and the United States (in Syria, in Sudan…) — I mean Al Qaeda and ISIS — and they are also enemies of Iran.

Don’t get me wrong. I personally have no wish to live in any kind of state, constitutional and democratic or otherwise, where religion is a dominant cultural factor — and that includes not only Iran but also Israel and the United States. No thank you. One of the few (there are only a few) things Australia has going for it is its comparative secular culture — though we could do better even in that department.

But I do like the idea of learning about other cultures, of understanding them, even appreciating both their uniqueness and what they share in common with everyone else. And I am frustrated so often trying to find information about Iran that is not skewed by Orientalist bias.

Re the current war, some names I have found to be more informative than others — in their writings and in online interviews:

Also Jonathan Cook and Gideon Levy

There are many others and many names who are gateways to the above and others:

You will no doubt have many others on your lists, as do I. These are some of the more regular names I turn to.

And for some glimmer of light relief through sarcasm check out Normal Island News from time to time!

Meanwhile, I am beginning to think we can expect eventual regime change as a result of this war — I mean regime changes in the USA and Israel and Europe. The Middle East of Sikes-Picot will come to an end. The Gulf States may even cease to be. The US will be forced to withdraw from the Middle East. And the Zionist wings of Israel finally deeply clipped. Or am I dreaming? Should I be paying more attention to Trump and Hegseth and the Bible’s prophecies of Armageddon and CNN for the “facts on the ground”?

 


2026-03-02

Vridar’s Current Qualifications

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by Neil Godfrey

If only I was achieving these results in my 20s…..

transcript 941x1024


2026-02-16

The Gospel of Mark as a Dark, Honest Beginning for Confused and Disoriented Jesus Followers?

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by Neil Godfrey

fearing jesusIf we read the Gospel of Mark as one of the foundational documents of what became “orthodox Christianity” — it is, after all, widely acknowledged to be the earliest of our canonical gospels — we might do well to read it “on its own terms”, and not through the perspectives of Matthew, Luke and John. In 2023 I attempted to explain what happens when we do this: Reading the Gospel of Mark Alone — Imagine No Other Gospels. Read alone, in isolation from the other gospels, it is most emphatically “a dark gospel” that leaves the modern reader in some despair, horror and fear:

— Jesus appears from nowhere, witnesses the rupture of the cosmos, is driven by an unexplained power, utters a call that compels hearers to drop all their livelihoods and instantly follow him, hides the meaning of his words from his audiences, rebukes both spirit and human powers who claim to know him, even tormenting those with such spirits by convulsions and screams, terrifies his followers when he displays unnatural powers as when he walks on water and stills a storm, then finally abandons his fearfully mute devotees to a messenger who tells them he’s left for Galilee.

Modern readers, however, prefer to “study” Mark’s gospel: as a gateway to historical data about Jesus, as a theological narrative that fleshed out the writings of Paul, as an attack on The Twelve, and so forth.

Let’s step back a moment. Imagine you are in an audience who had never heard a reading of a written narrative about Jesus before. Maybe, if you want to imagine Mark as a second century gospel, you can imagine, instead, that you have only previously heard Marcion’s gospel about a Jesus who was a son of a higher Good God. How are you going to react to your first hearing of the narrative about Jesus as per the Gospel of Mark?

I suggest you will hear it as a story. You will not hear it as a theological puzzle to be deciphered by a theologian, or as a stunning literary irony to be analyzed by a literary critic, or as the earliest attempt to document the life of a person of special interest to a historian.

You are going to hear a story of a Jesus no-one can quite grasp or comprehend, a Jesus who leaves his followers confused, a story of disciples whose earlier confidence had been shattered and who ended up fearful and speechless. No-one even saw the resurrected Jesus. Yet in all their confusion and disillusionment they still had faith.

Imagine if the Gospel of Mark had been written for survivors of the direst of calamities — in the wake of the events of 70 CE perhaps, but possibly even in the wake of repeated messianic failures and dashed hopes of the rebellions under Trajan, and then the final cruel desolation left by Hadrian in 135 CE. The hope many had found in John’s Apocalypse had been dashed, the earlier promise that Jesus would come had been found to be another mysterious figure of speech like all those other words of his that seemed so clear but only to “the blind”.

Can we imagine the Gospel of Mark being written for those who remained faithful despite all their failed hopes, despite the collapse of all they thought they had understood about Jesus and their own destiny as his followers?

If Marcion had responded by turning his back on the Jewish Scriptures, did “Mark” respond by inverting the supremacist promises of the Jewish scriptures, finding fulfilled victory ironically in the crucifixion?

If that was the origin of the Gospel of Mark it becomes obvious why it could not be allowed to stand as the last word. Clarity and reassuring signs of faith are necessary for a stable and enduring religion. Enter Matthew and Luke for that purpose. John got rid of apocalyptic hopes entirely and offered a faith where fulfillment was found in the here and now.

 


2026-02-09

Official Statement From Valeria Chomsky Regarding Jeffrey Epstein

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by Neil Godfrey

The following is from ZNet. Z has a header that encourages all to share it widely.

N-Chomsky

As many are aware, my husband, Noam Chomsky, now 97, is confronting significant health challenges after suffering a devastating stroke in June 2023. Currently, Noam is under 24/7 medical care and is completely unable to speak or engage in public discourse.

Since this health crisis, I have been entirely absorbed in Noam’s treatment and recovery, solely responsible for him and his medical treatment. Noam and I don’t have any kind of public relations assistance. For this reason, only now have I been able to address the matter of our contacts with Jeffrey Epstein.

Noam and I have felt a profound weight regarding the unresolved questions surrounding our past interactions with Epstein. We do not wish to leave this chapter shrouded in ambiguity.

Throughout his life, Noam has insisted that intellectuals have a responsibility to speak the truth and expose lies — especially when those truths are uncomfortable to themselves.

As is widely known, one of Noam’s characteristics is to believe in the good faith of people. Noam’s overly trusted nature, in this specific case, led to severe poor judgment on both our parts.

Questions have rightly been raised about Noam’s meetings with Epstein, and about administrative assistance his office provided regarding a private financial matter—one that had absolutely no relation to any of Epstein’s criminal conducts.

Noam and I were introduced to Epstein at the same time, during one of Noam’s professional events in 2015, when Epstein’s 2008 conviction in the State of Florida was known by very few people, while most of the public – including Noam and I – was unaware of it. That only changed after the November 2018 report by Miami Herald.

When we were introduced to Epstein, he presented himself as a philanthropist of science and a financial expert. By presenting himself this way, Epstein gained Noam’s attention, and they began corresponding. Unknowingly, we opened a door to a Trojan horse.

Epstein began to encircle Noam, sending gifts and creating opportunities for interesting discussions in areas Noam has been working on extensively. We regret that we did not perceive this as a strategy to ensnare us and to try to undermine the causes Noam stands for.

We had lunch, at Epstein’s ranch, once, in connection with a professional event; we attended dinners at his townhouse in Manhattan and stayed a few times in an apartment he offered when we visited New York City. We also visited Epstein’s Paris apartment one afternoon for the occasion of a work trip. In all cases, these visits were related to Noam’s professional commitments. We never went to his island or knew about anything that happened there.

We attended social meetings, lunches, and dinners where Epstein was present and academic matters were discussed. We never witnessed any inappropriate, criminal, or reproachable behavior from Epstein or others. At no time did we see children or underage individuals present.

Epstein proposed meetings between Noam and figures that Noam had interest in, due to their different perspectives on themes related to Noam’s work and thought. It was in this academic context that Noam wrote a letter of recommendation.

Noam’s email to Epstein, in which Epstein sought advice about the press, should be read in context. Epstein had claimed to Noam that he [Epstein] was being unfairly persecuted, and Noam spoke from his own experience in political controversies with the media. Epstein created a manipulative narrative about his case, which Noam, in good faith, believed in. It is now clear that it was all orchestrated, having as, at least, one of Epstein’s intentions to try to have someone like Noam repairing Epstein’s reputation by association.

Noam’s criticism was never directed at the women’s movement; on the contrary, he has always supported gender equity and women’s rights. What happened was that Epstein took advantage of Noam’s public criticism towards what came to be known as “cancelling culture” to present himself as a victim of it.

Only after Epstein’s second arrest in 2019 did we learn the full extent and gravity of what were then accusations—and are now confirmed—heinous crimes against women and children.

We were careless in not thoroughly researching his background. This was a grave mistake, and for that lapse in judgment, I apologize on behalf of both of us. Noam shared with me, before his stroke, that he felt the same way.

In 2023, Noam’s initial public response to inquiries about Epstein failed to adequately acknowledge the gravity of Epstein’s crimes and the enduring pain of his victims, primarily because Noam took it as obvious that he condemned such crimes. However, a firm and explicit stance on such matters is always required.

It was deeply disturbing for both of us to realize we had engaged with someone who presented as a helpful friend but led a hidden life of criminal, inhumane, and perverted acts.

Since the revelation of the extent of his crimes, we have been shocked.

In order to clarify the check, Epstein asked Noam to develop a linguistic challenge that Epstein wished to establish as a regular prize. Noam worked on it, and Epstein sent a check for US$20,000 as payment. Epstein’s office contacted me to arrange for the check to be sent to our home address.

Regarding the reported transfer of approximately $270,000, I must clarify that these were entirely Noam’s own funds. At the time, Noam had identified inconsistencies in his retirement resources that threatened his economic independence and caused him great distress. Epstein offered technical assistance to resolve this specific situation. On this matter, Epstein acted accordingly, recovering the funds for Noam, in a display of help and very likely as part of a machination to gain greater access to Noam. Epstein acted solely as a financial advisor for this specific matter. To the best of my knowledge, Epstein never had access to our bank or investment accounts.

It is also important to clarify that Noam and I never had any investments with Epstein or his office—individually or as a couple.

I hope this retrospect clarifies and explains Noam Chomsky’s interactions with Epstein.

Noam and I recognize the gravity of Jeffrey Epstein’s crimes and the profound suffering of his victims. Nothing in this statement is intended to minimize that suffering, and we express our unrestricted solidarity with the victims.

February 7, 2026.

Valéria Chomsky


2026-01-26

A Second Allard Pierson translation

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by Neil Godfrey

I have added another translation to the Allard Pierson page. This one is titled The Sermon on the Mount and Other Synoptic Fragments [= De bergrede en andere synoptische fragmenten]. The first part of the book is a discussion of the flawed methods traditionally used to study the gospels, many of which have been repeatedly addressed on this blog. So we’re not alone, and our critiques are not new.


2026-01-24

Another (the first?) Dutch Radical Translated

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by Neil Godfrey

Pierson,_Allard
Allard Pierson (Wikipedia image)

See the right hand margin: Allard PIERSON / S.A. NABER — Verisimilia — Translated

The pioneering work of “Dutch Radical” Allard Pierson, with S. A. Naber, Verisimila (=Probabilities), published 1886, is now translated to English.

Schweitzer on Pierson (Quest, 2001):

The radical Dutch thinkers denied the authenticity of the Pauline epistles. They could not accept that the thoughts contained in the epistles to the Romans, Corinthians and Galatians were the product of the middle of the first century and that they reflected the views of primitive Christianity. However, most of them still believed in the existence of Jesus, even though they maintained that it was the disciples who first made him into the Messiah. Only S. Hoekstra, Allard Pierson and Samuel Adrian Naber doubted whether the Gospels contained any historical information. (356)

In the Verisimilia Pierson and Naber offer the mythical interpretation; however, they hint at it more than developing it and giving reasons for it. (528)

 

 


2026-01-22

Why Jesus Was Made a Personification of Israel and the Church

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by Neil Godfrey

I have been intrigued by the idea that the Gospel of Mark narrates Jesus as a personification of the ideal Israel. What prompted the author to write about Jesus this way?

The answer to that question is found in the documents of the second century. (Bear with me: I am of the view that the Gospel of Mark was most likely written in the middle of the second century, post the Bar Kochba war, post Marcion — and in response to both.)

Justin Martyr, writing around the same time, wrote that the Jewish Bible declared the Messiah was to bear the name of “Israel”. He was referring to a prophecy in Isaiah about the Suffering Servant. A little later Heracleon, a student of Valentinus, made a similar point on the Gospel of John, that Jesus was understood to be a symbol, this time of the church.

Justin in Dialogue with Trypho, 123:9

I continued: “Again in Isaiah, if you have ears to hear it, God, speaking of Christ in parable, calls Him Jacob and Israel. He speaks thus: ‘Jacob is my servant, I will uphold Him; Israel is mine elect, I will put my Spirit upon Him, and He shall bring forth judgment to the Gentiles. He shall not strive, nor cry, neither shall any one hear His voice in the street: a bruised reed He shall not break, and smoking flax He shall not quench; but He shall bring forth judgment to truth: He shall shine, and shall not be broken till He have set judgment on the earth. And in His name shall the Gentiles trust.’

Heracleon (170s CE) is cited by the third century Origen as declaring that Jesus’ resurrection is the foreshadowing of the Church and its resurrection. Origen agrees, but this is a much easier link to make since it is based on the clearly symbolic motifs in the Gospel of John.

As for the Gospel of Mark, what interests me is that the idea of the messiah embodying the suffering servant of Israel was part of the discussion around the time of Marcion.

Now Marcion’s messiah or christ was not a “type” of Israel but an antithesis of everything to be found in the Jewish bible. If one had in mind to counter Marcion’s gospel, one could not do better than portray a christ who was embedded in a prophecy in Isaiah.

Hence the Gospel of Mark’s Jesus, like Israel in symbolic form, experiences

  • an exodus through the waters
  • 40 days in the wilderness, tempted
  • giving life and healing, including to nearby gentiles
  • the proclaiming of the divine message
  • is conquered by enemies — crucified — destroyed (the rock-hewn tomb of Jesus recalls another Isaianic text about the destruction of the temple)

Many studies demonstrate this Gospel’s comprehensive intertextuality with Isaiah.

One might even think of the author quilting a life of Jesus from themes and images in Isaiah (and other OT books). Why? As a rebuttal to Marcion? As an attempt to find a new meaning in the wake of the wars against the Judeans climaxing in the years of Bar Kochba? I suspect so. Marcion’s efforts have been interpreted as inspired by the same motivation, but he went too far in opposition to the OT for some.

It is surely clear that interpreting the Gospel of Mark’s Jesus this way is not a modern concoction. It surely emerged in a time when that notion of Christ was part of the broader discussion.


2026-01-21

Human — No Longer Meant for this World

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by Neil Godfrey

al-shamahiPaleo anthropologist and science communicator Ella Al-Shamahi’s presentations on human evolution have finally come to my notice. In the video titled “Humans are not evolved for modern life” the segment that focussed me most was her account of how she moved from being a dedicated Muslim missionary, with all its fundamentalist and anti-evolutionary teachings, to a believer in evolution and leaving her religious community behind. Not that every Muslim today (like Christians) must deny evolution to retain some form of their faith. What Ella described was an experience that many ex-believers (including yours truly) know well. The emotional toll can linger long. And once again, contrary to the ignorance of those who spill their contempt on those with an unfavourable religious background (“once an X always an X”), Ella has absolutely no desire to dissuade others of her former faith to follow in her footsteps: “everyone has their own journey to travel” is the respectful and caring stance.

cook
Another way our evolved natures fail to function for the best in our modern mass society: https://x.com/Jonathan_K_Cook/status/2013564884701638849

Further, Ella has some interesting — and worrying! — comments on the future of science in our increasingly politically-socially divided society. Here (again) the bottom line is tribalism: we are evolved to agree with our tribe — the tribes of Left and Right, of Atheism and Religion. . . .

Why are we (homo sapiens) so successful? The answer passed on by Ella is our sociability. Genetically we are the most sociable of species and it is our sociability that has selected for our bigger brains. The brains came second. It’s that social connectivity that has allowed us to succeed while other species of homo have been left behind. (Though it’s hardly an equal race, given that we have been around for a much shorter time compared with the other species.)

So where did Humans go wrong? Ella pinpoints our move to farming and city living. We are evolved to live in small communities of, say, 150, where we all know each other.

Living in larger organized communities has enabled us to shine in some astonishing ways but there has been/is yet to be a heavy price. I’m reminded of our tribalism: we love those to whom we feel we belong more than processes that might be good for us and our survival. Ella is confident because our species has come through dire crises before.

Are we still evolving? To a very limited extent since technology and medical advances have seen that persons who would normally cease to reproduce are now able to reproduce and thrive.

It’s a fascinating time of new discoveries just in this century alone — Homo Floresiensis (the hobbit who may even be a descendant of one of our longer-armed shorter ancestors by a million years), the DNA-discovery of the Denisovans and the controversial Home Naledi (brain as small as a chimp yet made stone tools and some think ritually cared for their dead).


2026-01-17

The Gospel of John Shaped by Greek-Judean Philosophy and the God Dionysus

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by Neil Godfrey

john philo dionysus.001 1024x453
Many have written about the influences of Philo and the god Dionysus on the Gospel of John, but for extensive detail and placing it in the broader context it is hard to surpass Julius Grill.

Anyone interested in the Gospel of John and its

  • strong themes of the god Dionysus on Jesus
  • indebtedness to Philo’s discussion of the Logos/Word
  • closely related Persian, Buddhist and Hindu concepts
  • very different Jesus from that of the synoptic gospels
  • and analysis of why the gospel was written

will find something of note in the two volumes on the Fourth Evangelist by Julius Grill — now “translated” from the German. I was alerted to Grill’s study by Robert Vipper who wrote:

A number of studies in Gospel criticism (particularly noteworthy is the work of Grill: Untersuchungen ϋber die Entstehung des vierten Evangeliums [=Studies on the Origin of the Fourth Gospel], 1908 and 1924) established the fact of the late origin of these works and their dependence on religious-philosophical currents in the literature of the 2nd century. (Vipper, 120 – translation, my bolding)

But a warning! I said that I “translated” Grill’s study. It might almost be better to say that I have “transcribed” it from the German. My initial motivation was to have a copy for my personal use only. I did not expect to make it public at the time. In a strenuous effort to avoid the AI translator from creative whims when translating, I set the parameters so strict that the result reads more like a word-for-word transposition from German to English. This can make it a tiring read. But for what it’s worth, here it is for anyone interested enough to make the effort.

The English language files are available at  Julius GRILL – Origin of the Gospel of John Translated (see the right margin for this and other translation links).

  • Vipper, Robert Iu. Rim i rannee khristianstvo
    [Rome and Early Christianity]. Moscow: Izdatelʹstvo Akademii Nauk SSSR, 1954.

2026-01-15

Comment on Gabriele Boccaccini’s Discussion about Nina Livesey and Paul’s Letters

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by Neil Godfrey

Boccaccini 243x300
Gabriele Boccaccini

Here I am making a few responses to Professor Gabriele Boccaccini’s discussion that I translated — see the previouso post. (Note: I did not make the transcription — that was supplied by the homesite of the video, and it was machine generated. I used AI to assist in translating it.)

The first point of note was the following:

7:15
Nina Livesey is a colleague from Rome. Her book, however, needs to be clarified somewhat, because it does not actually claim outright that Paul did not exist. She presents a fairly nuanced version of this issue.

Yes indeed.

Boccaccini, as did Livesey herself, explained to audiences what has gone before in the scholarship. It’s a bit like knowing one’s history. To be ignorant of history is to remain forever a child, someone said. To contribute meaningfully to a discussion it is important to take a little time to listen to what has been said before one chimes in with new ideas. . . .

8:46
When one wants to assess the seriousness of certain arguments, one must place them within a line of discussion. Scholarly hypotheses do not arise because one of us wakes up one morning and suddenly produces some radical novelty.

Another point worth keeping in mind . . .

28:04
What I would also like to clarify is that there was never a single, unified Christianity that later fractured. Such a monolithic religion never existed

Yet it seems to me that many scholars have written forgetting this point. This arises from the assumption that the gospels are the product of an oral tradition that began with historical events, and that passed on those historical events, and that gospel authors were keen to pick up those traditions and with pious intent (and exaggerations) record them for posterity. Paul’s letters, it is assumed, were related in some way to the group behind that oral tradition. That is all assumption. It is based on another assumption — that the gospels represent sincere attempts to portray a historical figure.

Readers impatient to get to the nitty gritty of Boccaccini’s discussion of Livesey’s thesis, begin here . . . .

34:01
This brings us, at least in part, to the substance of Nina Livesey’s book.

Boccaccini’s difficulties with dating Paul’s letters to the second century are set out in this slide:

slide5aHere I think Boccaccini has missed a key point. Livesey is asking us to consider the scenario where the letters did not exist singly prior to their inclusion in a corpus. No. The letters were written from the beginning to be part of a corpus. That answers B’s first criticism above.

On the second point, I wonder if B is assuming that the present state of the letters is the same as their original state. I think there is much evidence for rival theological groups tampering and altering the letters after they were presented by Marcion. So I think that answers B’s second difficulty.

The third point (Hellenistic origin should be better understood as “Greek/gentile origin” to avoid confusion with “the Hellenistic period”) is pointing to what is known as the “new perspective” on Paul. Further on in the discussion B explains his point when he introduces the last slide (1:41:54) in his presentation: he argues that some “recent” scholarship argues for the “Jewishness” of Paul and that such a view of Paul is best explained as a first century phenomenon. B argues that the NP on Paul is a good explanation for how the “Jesus movement” developed, how it shifted from Jewishness to something more open. My response is that the singular “Jesus movement” is an assumption: see 28:04 above, the same point B himself made.

Two responses: 1. the New Perspective on Paul (that he was more Jewish in his thinking than generally realized) is a hypothesis, and interpretation, and not a fact. It is open to revision or even being discarded; 2. If the NP proves to be valid, it may mean little more in the end than that Marcionism needs to be understood with more nuance. NP is a hypothesis and not a fact that must be weighed in assessing a date for the letters.

B in the following is continuing with his assumption that the letters existed singly prior to being found in a corpus:

38:13
Why is Paul transmitted as a corpus? Obviously, transmitting an author as a corpus has the function of homogenizing the author’s thought.

and again,

1:12:59
Paul cannot be transmitted as a single, isolated letter; Paul must always be seen as a corpus. The function of the corpus is always to homogenize. .

Letters were known to be published as a corpus. Pliny the Younger’s letters were published as such. So were Seneca’s as Livesey, I think, points out. I am not sure that there is any reason to think that the original corpus contained contradictions that needing “homogenizing”.

39:51
Thus, if Marcion and later the Church Fathers attribute a corpus of writings to a particular author, this means that the author was already famous.

40:06
. . . knowledge of Paul must predate the moment when the corpus itself is formed—pushing us back to the beginning of the second century or even earlier.

Literature has had a history of being attributed to hitherto unknown or at least relatively unknown persons who thereby take on a new persona and become famous. See my comment at https://vridar.org/2026/01/12/nina-livesey-and-the-authenticity-of-pauls-letters-a-critical-response/#comment-358607. Robert Vipper wrote in his work on the origin of the Christian literature:

How this book came into the hands of Marcion, whence the legend of the apostle Paul and the very name Paul arose—these questions will hardly ever be resolved. Even for the contemporaries of the publication of the “Epistles” this was a difficult riddle; 25-30 years after their appearance the author of the “Acts of the Apostles” could advance on the question of the personality and activity of the apostle Paul only hypotheses, conjectures, combinations. Judging by how highly Marcion valued the collection of letters of the apostle Paul, one may suppose that he believed both in the real existence of the apostle himself and in the work accomplished by him. But another supposition is also possible: Marcion, a native of Pontic Sinope, may have had memories of a remarkable Asia Minor organizer and preacher named Paul, into whose mouth the compiler of the “Epistles” (whether Marcion himself or someone else from his school) placed his own thoughts, his own system of doctrine, in the same way that Plato set forth the entire rich content of his philosophy—the proof of the immortality of the soul, the hymn to universal Eros, the teaching of the best state—through the person of a single, in his eyes incomparable, holy, divine teacher, Socrates. (p. 186 translation)

Back to B:

57:50
. . . What seems most paradoxical to me is that some of these texts, which do not fit naturally into the second century, reproduce concepts and ideas that run counter to the very purpose of forming the corpus—ideas that go against Marcionite theology . . .

. . .

1:24:01
At least some of the material in these letters gives good, well-founded reasons for thinking it comes from the first century,

1:24:07
because it reflects that kind of debate and discussion.

I think this is somewhat circular. Is it on the basis of other NT documents whose dates are also questionable that it is believed particular topics were of interest in the first century? We know from Justin Martyr, for example, that the question of circumcision was indeed a hot topic in the middle of the second century. Paul’s letters are topical for this time. See also Hermann Detering’s works for more examples.

2:08:09
Finally, regarding Acts: it is unlikely to be a simple anti-Marcionite reaction.

2:12:00
Acts presents a very Jewish Paul—something difficult for a second-century author aligned with later church positions.

2:13:09
No one invents something that causes embarrassment.

On the contrary, if I recollect correctly, a good number of scholars have pointed to Acts being a catholiczing work, a narrative that aimed to “homogenize” different Christian sects or groupings, into one faith. That’s not a “simple anti-Marcionite reaction”; it is a constructive and judicious reaction. A Marcionite figure was embraced, but he had some changes in his clothes. No-one invents embarrassments for oneself, but readers can often misjudge what was written and prematurely dismiss it as if the writer was him/herself in knots.


2026-01-12

Nina Livesey and the Authenticity of Paul’s Letters: A Critical Response

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by Neil Godfrey

Here is an English translation of the transcript of Professor Boccaccini discussing the main idea of Nina Livesey’s book, The Letters of Paul in their Roman Literary Context: Reassessing Apostolic Authorship. [I took the machine-generated transcript from the Ora Sapere! site for translation.]

I have included images and translations of Boccaccini’s slides in his presentation. —

Watch on the Youtube site for comments and links to related videos, including others programs in the Ora Sapere! series.

Translated transcript

0:00
[Music] Today I am able to understand it and to admit that order can arise from chance, and that the first step is to bring the human being back to the center.

0:15
Not predestined, but imperfect products of events and of chemical infatuations.

0:24
The needles hidden in a straw man are found more easily if you burn him with a torch; the burst of flame washes over my face, and you teach me light, hope, and also reason, which is made of science—and I can no longer live without it.

0:41
[Music]

0:49
[Applause] [Music]

0:56
[Applause] [Music] When I have a mystical crisis at fifty-five,
I hope you come to arrest me. I will have a mystical crisis at fifty-five; I hope you come to arrest me. I will have a mystical crisis at fifty-five, from this moment on.

1:47
And here we are. So—[Music]

1:53
A few months ago a book was published, a book by the academic Nina Livesey and this book, let’s say, put forward a thesis that caused quite a stir:

2:12
the idea that Paul—indeed, the author of the Pauline letters according to traditional attribution—might actually be a non-historical figure.

2:25
When the book came out, I avoided doing a live broadcast immediately after finishing it, because, given the topic and the nature of the proposal, I decided to look for an expert—with a capital “E”—to deal with the issue.

2:44
And finally the moment has come when we have that expert with a capital “E.” So I would like to welcome Professor Gabriele Boccaccini, author of numerous books and a leading expert on Second Temple Judaism, and, I’m told, also a specialist on Paul—so perfectly suited to the question we need to explore today.

3:07
So, hello everyone. I am your Faber Lumière. Welcome to Al Lume della Ragione Show, the weekly appointment every Sunday at four o’clock, where we seek the truth starting from the evidence, to bring clarity to a sea of confusion.

3:28
Episode 247. As usual, if you find the video interesting, remember to leave a like, share it, let me know in the comments, or join us on the server linked in the description and via the icon at the top right: gruppovismo3.0.eu, the site where you can find all my content and that of the rest of the group.

3:45
I apologize for the long introduction. Professor, would you like to tell us a bit about yourself—who you are, what you do?

3:59
First of all, I greet everyone who is connected, and those who will connect in the future by watching this video. I thank you for the invitation and for the opportunity to talk a little about the status quaestionis, as we say in technical terms—that is, what scholars are discussing, including Nina Livesey, and what the issues are that are currently under scholarly debate.

4:33
I am essentially a specialist in Second Temple Judaism and in Christian origins, including Paul, because I approach him from the standpoint of ancient Jewish tradition.

4:45
For me, Christianity is one of the apocalyptic and messianic movements that arose within Second Temple Judaism. So I treat early Christianity in the same way that I treat the Dead Sea Scrolls, the works of Philo of Alexandria, or the works of Josephus—as one of the many manifestations of a Jewish world that was extremely diverse and very different from what we usually imagine.

5:12
That is because we know Judaism mainly through the rabbinic reform, which comes later. I study Christian origins from this perspective.

5:24
On this occasion, I was asked to clarify, at least a little, what the terms of the question are. I have also prepared a few small slides to give you an idea of how to situate this discussion within a debate that certainly did not begin today—a debate that has been going on for centuries.

5:52
So I prepared a few short slides. Before we move on to them, however, I must confess—very culpably—that I forgot to offer a greeting and acknowledgement to Dr. Cuscito, whom I must thank for putting us in contact and who also sends his greetings. I’ve also made videos with him; he is always a very important presence.

6:18
Okay. The second issue, before getting into the substance of the matter, is to clarify who “Lizzi” is. In these kinds of discussions, it is often difficult to keep track of the scholarly weight of the various positions.

6:46
There are people who arrive at a hypothesis such as “Paul never even existed” in a completely arbitrary way—by guessing blindly, in the depths of ignorance, so to speak.

7:05
As far as I know, this is not the case with Lizzi. Could you give your view on the level of scholarly credibility we are dealing with here?

7:15
Nina Livesey is a colleague from Rome. Her book, however, needs to be clarified somewhat, because it does not actually claim outright that Paul did not exist. She presents a fairly nuanced version of this issue.

7:29
It is a discussion of the Pauline letters, especially the Pauline corpus, and therefore also of the attribution of authorship.

7:51
These are issues that need to be situated within a broader scholarly discussion. And the point you raise is very important, because many times theses are advanced in a rather amateurish way.

8:11
Someone writes a text, and only later do we discover that they lack any academic background or scholarly credentials. That is not the case here.

8:25
We are dealing with serious problems, and therefore with a debate that exists within the academic world and must be understood in its seriousness.

8:46
When one wants to assess the seriousness of certain arguments, one must place them within a line of discussion. Scholarly hypotheses do not arise because one of us wakes up one morning and suddenly produces some radical novelty.

9:06
That may be how things appear in the press, but it is not how scholarship actually works. There are questions, debates, and sustained investigations, and one must go back to the roots.

9:23
That is why I am happy to come here and explain how the work of Livesey came into being—it did not spring up like a mushroom out of nowhere. These issues have been under discussion for at least two centuries.

9:44
Each scholar adds a small new tile to the structure that makes up this long conversation, which continues within the scholarly community, welcoming different voices and contributions.

9:56
So we are not talking about a conspiracy theory; we are talking about a serious hypothesis that deserves discussion. Let us deal with serious matters and talk about how these problems arose.

10:15
As I said, if you show the first slide, we arrive at the historical-critical research you mentioned.

slide1a10:23
We must understand that historical research essentially emerged at the end of the eighteenth and the beginning of the nineteenth century. We have to go back a bit and study, because it arose in a religious context and was therefore influenced by the religious paradigms of the time.

10:50
In the first slide, we see that two elements inherited from religious tradition had long been treated almost as dogmas—not in a religious sense, but in an interpretive one—and they became the starting point for scholarly reflection.

11:16
First: Paul’s letters form a corpus, that is, a coherent collection of works by a refined first-century theologian, the historical Paul, marking Christianity’s emancipation from Judaism.

11:42
The unifying feature of the corpus was its anti-Jewish element: Paul was understood as the theologian who separated Christianity from Judaism. This was taken for granted by everyone, Jewish and Christian alike.

11:57
The second point was that the letters of Paul formed a single unit: the thirteen letters attributed to Paul (originally fourteen, since Hebrews was included until the sixth century, before that attribution was abandoned).

12:20
These thirteen letters were all considered to be written by Paul himself, and that Paul was identified with the Paul described in the Acts of the Apostles.

12:34
These were the two “dogmas,” the two fixed points of early scholarship.

12:46
If you move to the second slide, you can see—and feel free to interrupt me with questions at any moment to keep the discussion lively.

slide2a13:00
I am not giving a full lecture; I am using just a few slides to establish some fixed points.

13:06
The second point is that in the nineteenth century historical research began to emancipate itself from religious tradition, gaining autonomy and no longer being strictly controlled by religious institutions or churches.

13:30
It began to question some certainties—not so much the theological homogeneity of the Pauline letters, but rather the question of authorship. Continue reading “Nina Livesey and the Authenticity of Paul’s Letters: A Critical Response”


2026-01-10

Making Sense of those Gospel-Josephus Similarities

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by Neil Godfrey

jesus ben ananias meant over the fate of jerusalem jesus ben ananias by the romans giftedtwo representations of a plate at the top right numbered 497 2F28Y2E 550x1024
Jesus ben Ananias (copyright-free version)

Josephus writes of a madman named Jesus son of Ananias who cries out a warning of doom to Jerusalem. He is brought before a Roman official but dismissed as having lost his wits.

Another Jesus figure in Josephus was a rebel and companion of seamen as well as land workers.

Josephus writes of prominent rebel leaders named Simon and John. Simon is even said to stage a kind of “resurrection” after the Roman conquest.

Josephus wrote of a slaughter of Galileans in the lake of Galilee that brings to mind the slaughter of men being compared to catching fish.

Josephus narrates encountering three crucified figures, one of whom he rescued from the cross. No doubt there are more that escape me at the moment.

What are we to make of these echoes of gospel accounts?

Some scholars have understandably attempted to find a “real Jesus” and his historical activity in them. Some have even attempted to find a Jesus who was of a similar kind to other false prophets and bandits Josephus writes about. Those efforts, to my mind, are overly speculative. I think there is a simpler explanation.

To appreciate that simpler explanation one must accept the likelihood that all of the gospels were written well after the time of Josephus. The advantage of a post Josephan date is that it has the support of independent evidence: the existence of the gospels is not testified until the second century.

That simpler explanation follows. The authors were searching for material from which to shape the person and narrative for gospel Jesus:

But long before Christian censors attempted to adapt the text of Josephus Flavius to their own purposes, early Christian writers, those who worked on the compilation of the books of the New Testament, tried to find in Josephus Flavius proofs of the real existence of Jesus Christ. Their insistence in this direction can be fully understood. For Josephus Flavius was for them one of the most important sources that could give an explanation of the events that took place in Palestine in the 1st century C.E. One need only look closely at the peculiar—by our standards extremely naïve, but at that time entirely usual and widely practiced in literary work—methods and techniques of searching employed by the evangelists, and it becomes clear how eagerly they seized upon the slightest hints in Josephus’ narrative that could serve them as support for depicting the life and activity of Jesus Christ.

Very characteristic are the various identifications that were made by the evangelists in connection with the name Jesus. At one time Jesus, son of Sapphias, appears as the leader of a detachment of rebels recruited from sailors and the poor (ναύται καὶ πένητες) (Vita Josephi, 12). At another time it is Jesus, son of Ananias, a half-mad peasant who appears in the streets and squares of Jerusalem several years before the uprising of 66, with a plaintive groan and cry foretelling the destruction of the sacred city and its great temple.

Both episodes were used by the evangelists. They “corrected” and idealized this image in their own way, while nevertheless preserving concrete details. Jesus remained at the head of the poor and of sailors, people engaged on the water and on boats; it was only necessary to turn sailors into fishermen–boatmen, from whom the first group of apostles is recruited, and to call the quiet Lake of Gennesaret a sea (θάλασσαν τῆς Γαλιλαίας) (Gospel of Mark, I, 15 ff.). Once adopted, the metaphor of “people engaged on the water” was then developed with the addition of new motifs: the calming of the night storm, walking on the water as on dry land, delivering a sermon from a boat, and so forth. The evangelist proceeds in the same way with Jesus, son of Ananias, the crazed commoner who came from the village. Prophetic words about the destruction of the great sanctuary are spoken by Jesus Christ, ascending a hill from which one could admire the view of Jerusalem and its temple.

In both cases, what belongs to the evangelist is only the artistic elaboration of the original motif borrowed from the account of Josephus Flavius.

However weak and primitive the scholarly and literary methods of the Christian writers may now seem to us, in one respect the historian of our own day must render them justice: they persistently sought in Josephus an answer to the question of who the predecessors of the Christians were.

. . . . 

This narrative [Gamaliel’s reference to Theudas and Judas], of course, has no independent historical value, but it once again shows the extent to which Josephus Flavius was important for Christians as one of the sources for knowledge of the history of Judaism in the first century A.D., and then, in particular, reveals to which events in this history Christians paid primary attention, which figures, which directions of religious-political thought of that epoch attracted their sympathies. (Vipper, 76-77, 80 – translation)

Vipper, Robert Iu. Rim i rannee khristianstvo
(Рим и раннее христианство)
[Rome and Early Christianity]. Moscow: Izdatelʹstvo Akademii Nauk SSSR, 1954.

–o0o–

A few other posts on Josephus in the Gospels:


2026-01-08

Two Russian Texts on Christian Origins Translated into English

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by Neil Godfrey

Robert Vipper
Robert Vipper

I am expecting this year to enter a master’s program researching the historical origins of our canonical Christian literature. The thesis I have discussed with a potential supervisor is the evidence for  their composition as late as the mid to late second century. So it was with mixed feelings that I read Robert Vipper’s 1946 Russian study that in many ways coincided with the very thesis that I had been developing in recent years.

I was first very pleased with his explanation of his approach to historical sources. Yes, he applies the same methods that historians in non-biblical or non-theological studies take for granted. He sees right through the circularity of most biblical scholars taking the narratives of the gospels and epistles at face value (or at least that they are attempts, however mythologized, to rely on some historical core), without any independent controls to test their character as source material. That’s been a “hobby horse” of mine for some years now. I am in step with his method of testing and evaluating the sources. (I pull back a little, however, on his positivist view of historical analysis — that is, Marxist-Hegelian interpretation of “laws” of historical development. Though I was intrigued by his conclusion that Christianity as we would recognize it began more as a movement led by the reasonably well-to-do members of society. All of that is another discussion for another day.)

I said I had mixed feelings. One of them was feeling humbled in having to acknowledge that others (or at least Vipper) have long ago paved the main path I have been traveling on. But that is also reassuring. Vipper identifies the horrific calamities inflicted on the Judeans not only in the war of 66-70 but even moreso with the massacres under Trajan and Hadrian as being critical factors in the emergence of what we think of as conventional Christian literature. Where he has gone on well ahead of what I had been thinking, though, is that he finds as much explanatory power in the post-Hadrianic period: that is, the “enlightened” flavour of the times under Antoninus Pius and Marcus Aurelius. He even points to Plutarch’s “parallel lives” (published much earlier) as having a significant influence on the gospels. That’s an idea I  attempted to explore a long time ago and Vipper tempts me to revisit that possibility.

Other encouraging points in common:

  • The original view of a suffering and crucified messiah was not that it took place in heaven but that it was originally an abstract or mystical act beyond space and time. In the second century we see various efforts to transfer this idea into a real place and setting in history.
  • Justin Martyr (mid second century) does not know the canonical gospels
  • The Epistle of Barnabas is a “pre-gospel” text

Other hypotheses that surprised me:

  • The Shepherd of Hermas and The Didache are pre-Christian writings (or at best “proto-Christian”)
  • Jesus was a minor deity among Jewish associations prior to Christianity. Here Vipper points to some of the stronger arguments of W.B. Smith.

All of the above is found in

  • Vipper, Robert Iu. Vozniknovenie khristianskoi literatury
    (Возникновение христианской литературы)
    [The Emergence of Christian Literature]. Moscow: Nauka, 1946.

The other work I have translated

Vipper, Robert Iu. Rim i rannee khristianstvo
(Рим и раннее христианство)
[Rome and Early Christianity]. Moscow: Izdatelʹstvo Akademii Nauk SSSR, 1954.

Here Vipper explores in more detail the historical background from which Christianity emerged in the later second century. Given recent discussion here on the letter of Pliny the Younger to Trajan about Christians, some readers will find Vipper’s chapter on that letter of interest.

Both translations are accessible via a new page I have created. Robert VIPPER (Wipper) – Works Translated into English  Check the right margin of this blog.


2025-12-26

A Message to Richard Carrier. – And Difficulties with Pliny’s Letter about the Christians

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by Neil Godfrey

A Message to Richard Carrier:

Hi Richard …. I hope we can press a re-set button and make a fresh start. Some years back you gave me good advice: you said that when we make mistakes the best thing we can do is admit them, correct them and move on. Earlier this year I was somewhat dismayed at your responses to my criticisms of aspects of your Bayesian approach to history — it was evident to me that you had not had time to read the full discussion and as a result failed to even acknowledge, let alone address, the arguments I was making.

Soon afterwards I sought from you some background to your criticisms of Enrico Tuccinardi’s stylometric analysis of Pliny’s letter about the Christians. I admit my questions were curt — my disillusionment from your responses to my earlier criticisms re Bayes still rankled — but you did not answer any of them and only responded with generalized personal imputations of bad motive and wrong reasoning.

Please let’s do a re-set. Though I have criticisms of your applications of Bayes in historical research I have never advocated a wholesale abandonment of Bayesian reasoning. If you ever read my past or future posts addressing my reservations of your approach, I trust you will read them with care, accepting they are written in good faith and that I seek a respectful and cordial and informed dialogue.

Similarly with respect to this post — about your criticisms of Tuccinardi’s study of Pliny’s letter 10.96. Again, I suspect you failed to do the careful reading required for a fuller understanding of his arguments. You are a busy man. But when it comes to writing publicly about other people’s works we owe it to them and to ourselves to be scrupulously careful to get things right. If we find we have made mistakes, we move on, determined not to repeat them in the future.

P.S.
You have been the target of many personal, even dishonest, criticisms from scholars and lay readers alike. So was Earl Doherty, whom we both highly respect. One of the reasons we admired him was his patience and civility in the face of those sorts of attacks. (In fact, some of my disagreements with you go back many years but because of the “attack Carrier” climate so prevalent on the web at the time I remained silent: I did not want anyone to think I was contributing to fanning personal denigration.)

–o0o–

To Everyone Else:

In July this year I posted a regret that I lacked time to post on certain topics then. Well, here is my catch up with one of those topics: Richard Carrier’s, Statistical Stylometrics: The Good, the Bad, and the Horrid (Part 2: Pliny and Galen).

Before I was able to post my own views of what Richard Carrier (RC) had written Enrico Tuccinardi (ET) posted his detailed response. So that makes it easier. I can conflate some of what I was hoping to say with his remarks. (In brief, ET argues that Pliny’s letter contains anomalies that make it unreliable as a historical source; RC insists that ET has incompetently compared Pliny’s letter with the wrong database and therefore his conclusions are invalid.)

Misreading other scholarship

In the following 10.96 refers to Pliny’s letter about the Christians to emperor Trajan — it was the 96th letter in the tenth book of his letters. Books 1 to 9 were more literary epistles written and later curated by Pliny with the intent of making them public. Questions remain about how and why Book 10 came to be published.

RC wrote critically that Pliny was known for his stylistic variation and that ET failed to sufficiently consider this fact:

The study on that that Hurtado is calling attention to is Federico Gamberini, Stylistic Theory and Practice in the Younger Pliny, which demonstrates Pliny is particularly known for large style variation across his letters

That’s not quite what Gamberini wrote and here Hurtado is as much at fault as Carrier. Rather, Gamberini demonstrated “large style variation across” the first nine books of his letters. The tenth book, including 10.96, was monostylistic. Gamberini wrote that the group of letters to which #96 belongs illustrate

a low degree of differentiation, since most letters consist in reports or analyses of a given situation. (333f. Underlining original)

I’ll elaborate on this point in the following section.

handwaving.001Whose hand is waving?

RC continued:

And this is a problem Tuccinardi kind of handwaves off in a way a non-expert reading his study might miss. After reading it [presumably Gamberini’s analysis of Pliny’s style] myself . . . .

On the contrary, ET’s study and assumptions are entirely consistent with the literary analysis we read in Gamberini’s work. Carrier says he read Gamberini’s work — at least that’s how I interpret his words — but if so, then Carrier’s following description of Pliny’s letter contradicts at every point what Gamberini’s study makes explicitly clear (my bolding):

Pliny varies his style tremendously especially in respect to genre, which is why Tuccinardi says he only created an “aggregate profile” of book 10 of Pliny’s correspondence, which contains all his state correspondence (mainly with emperor Trajan). This is distinct from all his personal correspondence in books 1 through 9. . . . . letter 10.96 is more like the letters in Books 1–9, not less. So he is testing it against the wrong base text.

This is an immediate and enormous problem that single-handedly invalidates all of Tuccinardi’s results. Because letter 10.96 (I’ll call it Tuccinardi’s “disputed” letter) contains an unusual amount of personal thoughts and reflections compared to other letters in book 10. It therefore actually more resembles letters in books 1 through 9. Indeed, 10.96 deviates considerably from most of book 10 in being in a rhetorical style—most of the other letters there are in curt administrative Latin, with a comparative minimum of rhetoric or elaboration. They are, in effect, business letters designed to be as brief and to-the-point as possible. That couldn’t be more different than this letter which is unusually long, elaborate, rhetoric-laden, and on a very unusual subject—indeed, a unique one: Christianity . . . .

You’ll notice it is the only long letter in Book 10, and thus appears to be in a genre unlike most of that volume, and more like letters in the other volumes (e.g., just from the previous three volumes—I didn’t even check volumes 1 through 5 because 6 through 9 already show my point by themselves—compare: 6.2, 6.16, 6.20, 6.29, 6.31, 6.33; 7.6, 7.9, 7.17, 7.19, 7.24, 7.27, 7.33; 8.6, 8.14, 8.18, 8.20, 8.23 and 24; 9.13, 9.26, 9.33—none of which have anything comparable in volume 10 except 10.96).

No work required to check….

Just to comment on that last sentence first ….. Carrier is saying that he was driven to check for himself the earlier volumes of Pliny’s letters to compare their lengths and that he lacked time to compare them all. Again, this puzzled me because if he had read Gamberini he should have simply referred to Gamberin’s list setting out all the lengths of the letters in the first nine books (pp 151f), compared them with the length of the Pliny letter (54-55 lines by the same 1963 O.C.T. measure) and immediately identified a minimum of 34 letters of the same length and longer.

lengths 487x1024But length is not necessarily the same thing as style.

gamberiniCarrier & Hurtado versus Gamberini

The more critical problem lies in Carrier’s claim and Hurtado’s inference that the “style” and “genre” of 10.96 more closely align with the letters of books 1 to 9. But any reading of Gamberini flatly contradicts that assessment.

Gamberini classifies 10.96 among 24 letters of the type “requests for advice” (336) and examines its style among the other letters:

  • 10.96 contains a standardized ceremonial opening that is common to 31 other letters in book 10 and in common with 10 other “requests for advice” (341f, 347). These features are alien to the letters of books 1 to 9.
  • Gamberini further aligns 10.96 with a score of other book 10 letters containing “standardized expressions and formulas of deference” toward the emperor.
  • Unlike the letters of book 9, those of book 10, including 10.96, contain few if any instances of figures of speech — though 10.96 does contain one instance of the “stylistic” isocolon (357f).
  • Tropes are “extremely rare” in book 10 but Trajan’s letter of reply (10.97) contains one instance of imagery! (371)

In all, 10.96 is part of a book of very “boring” letters with respect to style and is nothing at all like “scintillating”(?) stylistic variants of books 1 to 9 — they all lack the “literary dimension”:

But fundamentally the letters of book 10 reveal to us, by the absence of the features common in books 1-9, the essence of the style of the curatius scriptae, consisting in the symmetry of paratactic sentences and brevity. The analysis of book 10 is a good ’’control” experiment (i.e. an experiment conducted ceteris paribus but with the omission of one factor, being in this case the literary dimension) confirming the results obtained in the analysis of books 1-9. (Gamberini, 374)

Imagining evidence?

Although RC claims that 10.96 “contains an unusual amount of personal thoughts and reflections” and is written in “a rhetorical style” he does not demonstrate these views with any illustrations. Gamberini cited line after line to demonstrate his descriptions of Pliny’s style. RC would help his case if he could single out just one example of “personal thought and reflection” and “rhetorical style” in 10.96 to justify his claim that it is more like letters in the first nine books than others in the tenth.

Let Pliny explain his stylistic variation

Gamberini classifies the letters of the first nine books into three types in order to analyse their style (p. 3).

Three major categories, themselves consisting of a variety of types, can initially be established:

(I) letters occasioned by practical relations or motives;

(II) letters occasioned by social relations or motives;

(III) letters corresponding to the types of oratorical excursuses. (136)

10.96 is thus excluded. But what makes for Pliny’s famous stylistic variation? Gamberini lets Pliny speak for himself:

Nor should lofty and elevated expressions always be sought. For just as in painting nothing sets off the light more than shadow, so in speech it is fitting both to lower and to raise the style.

[Original: Nec vero adfectanda sunt semper elata et excelsa. Nam ut in pictura lumen non alia res magis quam umbra commendat, ita orationem tam summittere quam attollere decet] (44)

Again,

To conclude, Pliny claims that he has followed the principle of variety of styles in an effort to please the various types of reader, so that although particular sections may not appeal to individual taste the finished whole will be appreciated by all . . . (41)

As for some of Pliny’s letters being long and others short, Pliny had his reasons:

Pliny will bolster his case for lengthiness with another argument . . . The pleader can never know what particular point will be most persuasive to the judges; different minds are affected by different arguments: hence the best policy is to bring into play as many arguments as possible in the hope that something may be gathered therefrom. This is in keeping with Pliny’s emphasis on variety . . . (29f)

The main point to be remembered with regard to Pliny’s view of amplitude of treatment is that substance must correspond to words. It is a matter pertaining to inventio, namely, the discovery of arguments which will be advantageous to the issue which one must prove. (36)

All of the above explains Pliny’s stylistic variation in the first nine books. It also explains why 10.96 does not belong in that particular collection.

Glen_Echo_Carousel
https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Glen_Echo_Carousel.jpg

The temptation of the merry-go-round

The temptation here will be to read 10.96 and interpret its details as illustrations of just what Pliny himself said should be a reason for a longer set of words. But that would be a circular argument. We need first to analyse what might be the functions of each of the details in 10.96. Are they really justified according to Pliny’s “rules”? Or do they violate the over-riding rule of the need for brevity in imperial correspondence?

RC attempts to argue that the letter is unlike others in book 10 because the subject is a unique one — Christianity. But this is an ad hoc explanation that simply ignores everything we (and Gamberini) know about why Pliny said he sometimes chose to write long letters. Nor does it explain why details are added that contribute nothing to the main point needed for Trajan to make a decision — after all, the letter acknowledges that trials of Christians were known to the emperor.

A bigger problem if Hurtado/RC are right

If 10.96 were of a comparable style (not just length) as any of the letters in Books 1 to 9, we would have a major problem on our hands. How could we explain why Pliny would at that one time decide to violate all his stated principles and style, rhetoric, oratory and lengths of letters in that one letter — especially given the simple fact that a brief letter was absolutely essential — according to his own advice stated elsewhere? Trying to excuse the anomaly by saying it was about a “unique” topic, Christianity (or religion etc), is only special pleading. Other topics (e.g. a request for a fire brigade was potentially more threatening to imperial peace) are also one-off administrative inquiries.

Understanding the method used

RC:

Tuccinardi uses only a character n-gram method. And if you read my Part 1, you’ll know why that’s a problem. Latin, like Greek, is not sufficiently like modern languages for that method to work.

On the contrary. Carrier evidently has not read basic references cited by ET that demonstrate the n-gram method is the most suitable method to apply to Latin and Greek and other highly inflected languages. Greek and Latin inflections are marked by rules of letter combinations, after all. Interested readers will find more benefit reading ET’s response than anything I could add here.

An old canard returns

RC:

Tertullian corroborates essentially the letter we have, which requires it to not only have been forged within seventy years of the original, but within the manuscripts of Pliny, which would be an incredible accomplishment for 2nd century Christians who in no way had that kind of control over pagan literature . . . Moreover, the market would be awash with independent copies of Pliny’s ten volumes then, so for Tertullian to have based an argument on a forged copy . . .  he’d be outed as an easily duped joke).

Every classicist and student of Latin literature knows that Book 10 was not published along with the other books and that it was far from being of widespread renown. Its history is unclear. Tertullian is the first to witness its existence, but his remarks only confirm a part of what we have in Pliny’s letter today. (This is similar to the tradition of the Christian martyr Perpetua; Tertullian makes some remarks about her but they are insufficient to establish the authenticity of a diary of hers known later to Augustine.) There is no evidence to indicate it was widely known. Our oldest manuscript comes from ecclesiastical pens in the middle ages.

Dear RC, you have surely responded in haste and not done careful homework on this occasion. It would not hurt your reputation if you were not so quick to impute incompetence and worse to others. Take it slow. Be thorough.  The results will be better for both your readers and you.


ET’s original article: An application of a profile-based method for authorship verification: Investigating the authenticity of Pliny the Younger’s letter to Trajan concerning the Christians

RC’s response: Statistical Stylometrics: The Good, the Bad, and the Horrid (Part 2: Pliny and Galen)

ET’s response (far more extensive and critical than mine – in particular with the question of peer review and RC’s choice to respond on a personal blog): Stylometry, Method and Misrepresentation: a Response to Richard Carrier on Pliny’s Ep. 10.96

And an online text of the letters of Pliny the Younger: https://archive.org/details/lettersofplinyyo0000plin/mode/2up


2025-12-22

Against Antisemitism And Genocide

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This work is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution 4.0 International License.

by Neil Godfrey

add your nameHi all,

I’ve just signed this petition from the Jewish Council and I thought you might like to do the same.

In the aftermath of the Bondi massacre, there are a lot of right-wing voices trying to stoke division and racism. The Jewish Council has a six point plan to tackle antisemitism and all forms of racial violence and they’re sending it to the Prime Minister as a petition.

I added my name because I wanted to help. It’s only by coming together that we can truly keep our communities safe from antisemitic and racial violence. I thought you might want to sign it too: https://jewishcouncil.good.do/unity

 

JewishCouncilAustralia
https://www.jewishcouncil.com.au/

Looking for Evidence for a Persian Period Temple in Samaria’s Mount Gerizim – Part 3

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by Neil Godfrey

Continuing with Part 3….uraei tree.001 300x144

Surely a simpler explanation is that the capitals bearing those motifs [Astarte’s tree of life and guardian cobra heads] were on Mount Gerizim because they were not forbidden in Persian times.

This time I will skip the background introduction and begin with a list of English language articles by Yitzhak Magen. There are no doubt other articles that I have not noticed but I am more than willing to address anything of relevance if they come to my notice. Do the following writings add anything to Magen’s claim that he has published “unequivocal” proofs of a Samaritan Temple in Mount Gerizim in Persian times?

  • Magen, Yitzhak. “The Dating of the First Phase of the Samaritan Temple on Mount Gerizim in Light of the Archaeological Evidence.” In Judah and the Judeans in the Fourth Century B.C.E, edited by Oded Lipschits, Gary N. Knoppers, and Rainer Albertz. Eisenbrauns, 2007.
  • Naveh, Joseph, and Yitzhak Magen. “Aramaic and Hebrew Inscriptions of the Second-Century BCE at Mount Gerizim.” ’Atiqot 32 (1997): 9–17.
  • Stern, Ephraim, and Yitzhak Magen. “Archaeological Evidence for the First Stage of the Samaritan Temple on Mount Gerizim.” Israel Exploration Journal 52, no. 1 (2002): 49–57.

I’ll address them in chronological order.

Article 1

  • Naveh, Joseph, and Yitzhak Magen. “Aramaic and Hebrew Inscriptions of the Second-Century BCE at Mount Gerizim.” ’Atiqot 32 (1997): 9–17.

Magen begins by explaining a detail that partly contradicts something he wrote in a later work and that was discussed in Part 1 of this series. In this 1997 article, the massive wall with its three imposing gates, the same that reminded him of Ezekiel’s description of a gated wall surrounding the Jerusalem Temple, was not from the Persian period at all.

The area of the sacred precinct on the summit of the mountain is about 5 acres. Two building  stages have been identified: the ancient precinct, dating to the Persian period, and a later one, from  the Hellenistic period; the precinct occupied the  same area in both stages. The later precinct was  surrounded by a particularly thick wall, built, like the residential buildings, of dressed quarried  stones, and coated on the outside with three layers of plaster. . . . Three gates can  be dated to this stage: the southern gate, originally  used by worshippers as the main entrance gate, of which a tower and a broad staircase have survived;  and the northern and eastern gates, of which  several cells have survived, recalling the structure  of the gates in the book of Ezekiel (40:6-16) and  the Temple Scroll. (my bolding and italics in all quotations)[1]

Later Magen wrote that some of the Persian period gates also reminded him of Ezekiel’s description. Details to help the reader decide what was so Ezekiel-like in the Persian wall are not abundant in his later post.

Again, Magen makes his emphatic declaration of what “we know” about the date of this temple for which he has provided no evidence:

However, while Josephus dates the construction to the reign of Alexander the Great, we now know that it was built in the time of Nehemiah.[2]

The remainder of the article addresses the inscriptions on the stones within the area of the precinct. All that needs to be pointed out here is that all of these inscriptions are dated from the Hellenistic era and later.[3]

The unprecedented large number of inscriptions at one site indicates that the Samaritans habitually wrote inscriptions on building stones, from the Hellenistic period onward.[4]

So when one quotes Magen’s translations of the inscriptions that seem to suggest the existence of a temple connected in some way to the stones, one is doing nothing more than sharing evidence suggesting a temple in the Hellenistic period or later. We will return to the dating of the inscriptions in the last part of this post.

Article 2

  • Stern, Ephraim, and Yitzhak Magen. “Archaeological Evidence for the First Stage of the Samaritan Temple on Mount Gerizim.” Israel Exploration Journal 52, no. 1 (2002): 49–57.

Now here we have a most interesting article. Two capitals of Phoenician design, bearing Phoenician and Egyptian religious motifs, were discovered on Mount Gerizim by Yitzhak Magen’s team.capitals.001 300x203

[5]

They consist of two motifs, “the central triangle with the two spiralling volutes and a Phoenician palmette”, very common among the Phoenicians and Iron Age Israel (that is before the Assyrian captivity).

[T]hey represent the Phoenician-Israelite version of the ‘tree of life’ (fig. 7), that major and most common ancient Near Eastern motif (Stern 1995: 319-334), towards which devotees turned with raised hands, standing or kneeling on both sides. This motif . . . was adopted from an Egyptian prototype, and is depicted . . . on a number of ivories found in the palace of the Israelite kings at Samaria . . . [6]

tree of life.001 300x258

[7]

The article continues:

It now seems almost certain that the ‘tree of life’ in these times symbolised the goddess ‘Astarte, the main Phoenician female deity. . . .

The other sacred emblem appearing on one of our capitals (fig. 1) is that of seven uraei [raised cobra heads], the heads of whom were cut away, . . . . In Egypt, uraei symbolised divine protection and as such they served as guardians to sacred locations . . . [8]

Stern and Magen conclude that the capitals were originally made in the time of the Israelite monarchy, perhaps for use in Shechem. So how to explain their presence on Mount Gerizim? Their answer: they were relics of the old “House of Yahweh” in Shechem but were taken from ruins there and re-used for the Temple on Mount Gerizim in Persian times.[9] This is their conclusion, even though they earlier wrote,

[B]oth capitals exhibit the motifs of the ‘tree of life’ and the uraei, which were prohibited during the Persian and Hellenistic periods by the Samaritan religious authorities, who—at this period—were strictly monotheistic. To the best of our knowledge, these two emblems are strict exceptions among the finds of the Mount Gerizim temple.[10]

uraei.001 236x300[11]

Surely a simpler explanation is that the Persian period Samaritans continued the same form of Yahweh worship much as it had been practised in the days of the kingdom – and as it still appeared to be practised among Jews at Elephantine in Egypt, complete with a pantheon of gods alongside Yahweh. In other words, the capital with those “pagan” motifs was on Mount Gerizim because they were not forbidden in Persian times.

So I don’t see any evidence in this article for the kind of temple Magen would want us to imagine was constructed in Persian era Mount Gerizim.

Article 3

  • Magen, Yitzhak. “The Dating of the First Phase of the Samaritan Temple on Mount Gerizim in Light of the Archaeological Evidence.” In Judah and the Judeans in the Fourth Century B.C.E, edited by Oded Lipschits, Gary N. Knoppers, and Rainer Albertz. Eisenbrauns, 2007.

Once more Yitzhak Magen begins his discussion by claiming the two-stage construction on Mount Gerizim’s “sacred precinct” area: the Persian period of the mid-fifth century BCE and the Hellenistic period of the early second century BCE. Magen describes the layout of the “sacred precinct”, its measurements, and so forth. The western wall has no discernable gate and Magen believes this is because it was closest to a Temple’s “holy of holies”:

This lack of gates may be due to the location of the Holy of Holies, the extremely hallowed rear extremity of the temple. I believe that the current Samaritan sacred site known as “The Twelve Stones” is located in the area of the Holy of Holies.[12]

Unfortunately “belief” is not evidence. Magen continues:

The Persian-period enclosure most likely featured three chamber gates: to the north, the east, and the south, reminiscent of the temple gates depicted in the book of Ezekiel (40:10–16), which was the basis for the temple built by the returning Babylonian exiles. The temple built by the returnees served, in turn, as the model for the temple erected by the Samaritans on Mt. Gerizim.[13]

So gates that “most likely” were there are “reminiscent” of Ezekie’s gates, which was the blueprint for the Jerusalem Temple supposedly built by returnees from Babylon – even though we have even less evidence for such a temple in Jerusalem at this time nor any for waves of returnees from Babylonian captivity. (See Evidence Against Jerusalem in Persian Times Producing the Hebrew Bible)

The closest Magen comes to offering any semblance of a Persian period temple is the following:

The precinct yielded thousands of pottery vessels and burned bones of sacrifices—of sheep, goats, cattle, and doves. The coins from the Persian period, the pottery vessels, and Carbon 14 (C-14) testing at the site enable us to ascribe the first phase of the temple to the mid-fifth century b.c.e. This temple was active for approximately 250 years, until the establishment of the new temple in the Hellenistic period.[14]

And then,

Numerous discoveries from the sacred precinct substantiate the existence of a Temple to the Lord. Dozens of finely dressed ashlars of similar size and fashioned with stone masons’ marks had been removed from the temple’s walls and were unearthed in the excavations. These stones, the only ashlars discovered on Mt. Gerizim in either private or public construction, were quarried away from Mt. Gerizim before being brought to the site. The debris yielded proto-Ionic or Aeolic capitals belonging to the early temple from the Persian period (fig. 8). The inscriptions discovered on Mt. Gerizim are the most striking indication of the existence of a temple.[15]

Those inscriptions, as we have seen, are acknowledged by Magen elsewhere to belong to the Hellenistic and later periods, not the Persian period. And figure 8 is a repeat of the one we saw bearing the pagan motifs associated with Astarte’s Tree of Life and the Egyptian guardian cobra (uraei).

capitals1.001 300x128

[16]

Concerning the inscriptions, Magen explains their relevance for a temple:

The inscriptions discovered on Mt. Gerizim are the most striking indication of the existence of a temple. Some contain the titles of the priests who served as religious functionaries (fig. 9),4 while others contain the formulas “before the God in this place,” “before (the) God,” or “before the Lord,” which are always indicative of a temple (fig. 10).5 An additional inscription in Hebrew notes “that which Joseph offered for his wife and his sons before the Lord in the temple” (fig. 11).6 Yet another inscription mentions the “house of sacrifice,” an expression that parallels an expression used to refer to the temple in Jerusalem (2 Chr 7:12).7 An inscription in Paleo-Hebrew script contains the Tetragrammaton, apparently as part of the phrase “the house of the Lord” (fig. 12).8 A Greek inscription on a sundial contains the phrase “Highest God,” which is the name of the Lord in Greek. Perhaps the most fascinating discovery is a small gold bell with a silver clapper from the fringes of the high priest’s ephod (Exod 28:33–35; fig. 13). [17]

Each of the footnotes I have preserved in the above quotation (from 4 to 8) point to twenty translations of inscriptions found in the volume that we discussed under the heading JSP vol. 2 in Part 1 of this series. Recall that Magen had introduced all of those inscriptions with this observation of their post-Persian date:

The excavations of Mt. Gerizim brought to light some four hundred inscription fragments in Neo-Hebrew and Aramaic (lapidary and Proto-Jewish) scripts, inscribed on building and paving stones, that were found inside the city’s Hellenistic period sacred precinct. Scores of Greek inscriptions were uncovered as well, some from the Hellenistic period, but most dating from the  reconstruction of the Samaritan sanctuary in the reign of Constantine I in the fourth century CE; some also dated from the time of the subsequent Byzantine church. Also found were a few inscriptions in the Samaritan script, whose style dates them to the medieval period. The unprecedented large number of inscriptions at one site indicates that the Samaritans habitually wrote inscriptions on building stones, from the Hellenistic period onward. . . .

We believe that most of the early inscriptions should  be dated to the Hellenistic period (third-second centuries BCE), although some may belong to the  earliest period of the sacred precinct (fifth-fourth centuries BCE).[18]

No further discussion attempts to justify the “belief” that “some may” belong to the fifth-fourth centuries.

As for the “dating the first phase of the Temple and the surrounding precinct”, Magen refers readers to the finds already covered in this series:

This section is devoted to the Persian period, with the goal of ending the long-standing debate concerning the beginnings of the Samaritan temple at the site. I anticipate that the presentation of the ceramic finds, the coins, and the C-14 examinations of the bones and ashes of the sacrifices will securely date the construction of the first phase of the temple to the mid-fifth century B.C.E. and not to the late fourth century B.C.E.—the time of Alexander the Great—as was claimed by Josephus (and subsequently by later scholars). [19]

As we have already seen, Magen does well enough in convincing us of the date of the pottery but continues to fail to explain how this pottery is evidence of a nearby temple:

[A]ll the pottery discovered at the site’s sacred precinct is to be securely dated to the period between the fifth and the fourth centuries b.c.e., that is, before the conquest of Alexander the Great. This dating is further supported by the numismatic finds.[20]

Similarly, again as we have seen by now, with the coins:

Despite the abundance of coins at the site, the number of coins from the Persian period is relatively small. . . .

I conclude, therefore, that all the Samaritan coins found on Mt. Gerizim, even if undated, preceded the time of the conquest of Alexander the Great (figs. 27–29).[21]

Gerizim coins.001

And the date of the ashes of the sacrificed animals? As we would expect:

Several C-14 samples were taken of charred wood and bones found at the site, all from the strata belonging to the early phase of the sacred precinct—the Persian–Ptolemaic period (450–200 B.C.E.), preceding the Seleucid conquest of the land of Israel in the time of Antiochus III.[22]

And we recall Magen’s perhaps inadvertent reminder elsewhere that there were more common centres for regular sacrifices than temples:

The sole acceptable fashion of worshiping a deity, whether YHWH or some other god, was by the construction of altars, shrines, and temples and offering sacrifices and burning incense.[23]

Conclusion

I believe that I have given Yitzhak Magen a fair chance to demonstrate the existence of a temple on Mount Gerizim in Persian times. When I first saw his emphatic claims (e.g. “unequivocal proof”) I assumed that he must have published irrefutable material evidence for that temple. I remained puzzled, however, by a few remarks of other scholars holding on to doubts or even outright rejection of such a temple. And the only other scholars who insisted on the temple cited the same source: Y. Magen. So I read and re-read Magen’s volumes on the archaeological finds and have presented the main points in this series of posts. I fail to see how Magen has come close to demonstrating that a Samaritan temple was built on Mount Gerizim in the Persian period.

And without that evidence, we cannot assume that Deuteronomy or any other work reflecting temple ideologies of the Pentateuch was being composed.

The fact is that Magen has left indications in his writings that support the alternative view that Samaria in Persian times embraced a polytheistic cult worship of Yahweh. Evidence for Pentateuchal ideas does not surface until well into the Hellenistic period.

 

Notes

[1] Joseph Naveh and Yitzhak Magen, “Aramaic and Hebrew Inscriptions of the Second-Century BCE at Mount Gerizim,” ’Atiqot 32 (1997): 9. Bolded highlighting is mine.

[2] Naveh and Magen, “Aramaic and Hebrew Inscriptions of the Second-Century BCE at Mount Gerizim,” 10.

[3] Naveh and Magen, “Aramaic and Hebrew Inscriptions of the Second-Century BCE at Mount Gerizim,” 10ff. The same article covers inscriptions clearly made in the Christian era.

[4] Yitzhak Magen et al., Mount Gerizim Excavations. Volume I: The Aramaic, Hebrew and Samaritan Inscriptions, trans. Edward Levin and Michael Guggenheimer, JSP Series Judea and Samaria Publications 2 (Israel Antiquities Authority, 2004), 13. Magen does qualify this point by saying that “some may belong to the earliest period of the sacred precinct (fifth-fourth centuries BCE). (p.14)

[5] Ephraim Stern and Yitzhak Magen, “Archaeological Evidence for the First Stage of the Samaritan Temple on Mount Gerizim,” Israel Exploration Journal 52, no. 1 (2002): 49.

[6] Stern and Magen, “Archaeological Evidence for the First Stage of the Samaritan Temple on Mount Gerizim,” 53.

[7] Stern and Magen, “Archaeological Evidence for the First Stage of the Samaritan Temple on Mount Gerizim,” 53.

[8] Stern and Magen, “Archaeological Evidence for the First Stage of the Samaritan Temple on Mount Gerizim,” 54.

[9] Stern and Magen, “Archaeological Evidence for the First Stage of the Samaritan Temple on Mount Gerizim,” 56.

[10] Stern and Magen, “Archaeological Evidence for the First Stage of the Samaritan Temple on Mount Gerizim,” 55.

[11] Stern and Magen, “Archaeological Evidence for the First Stage of the Samaritan Temple on Mount Gerizim,” 55.

[12] Yitzhak Magen, “The Dating of the First Phase of the  Samaritan Temple on Mount Gerizim  in Light of the Archaeological Evidence,” in Judah and the Judeans in the Fourth Century B.C.E, ed. Oded Lipschits et al. (Eisenbrauns, 2007), 160.

[13] Magen, “The Dating of the First Phase of the  Samaritan Temple on Mount Gerizim  in Light of the Archaeological Evidence,” 161.

[14] Magen, “The Dating of the First Phase of the  Samaritan Temple on Mount Gerizim  in Light of the Archaeological Evidence,” 164f.

[15] Magen, “The Dating of the First Phase of the  Samaritan Temple on Mount Gerizim  in Light of the Archaeological Evidence,” 166.

[16] Magen, “The Dating of the First Phase of the  Samaritan Temple on Mount Gerizim  in Light of the Archaeological Evidence,” 166.

[17] Magen, “The Dating of the First Phase of the  Samaritan Temple on Mount Gerizim  in Light of the Archaeological Evidence,” 166ff.

[18] Magen et al., Mount Gerizim Excavations. Volume I, 13f.

[19] Magen, “The Dating of the First Phase of the  Samaritan Temple on Mount Gerizim  in Light of the Archaeological Evidence,” 176.

[20] Magen, “The Dating of the First Phase of the  Samaritan Temple on Mount Gerizim  in Light of the Archaeological Evidence,” 179.

[21] Magen, “The Dating of the First Phase of the  Samaritan Temple on Mount Gerizim  in Light of the Archaeological Evidence,” 179f. Coins are from pages 207, 209, 211.

[22] Magen, “The Dating of the First Phase of the  Samaritan Temple on Mount Gerizim  in Light of the Archaeological Evidence,” 180.

[23] Yitzhak Magen, The Samaritans and the Good Samaritan, trans. Edward Levin, JSP Series 7 (Israel Antiquities Authority, 2008), 10.