2018-05-14

Jerusalem and savagery

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This work is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution 4.0 International License.

by Neil Godfrey

Palestinians who got shot to death yesterday have a lot to answer for. Those who killed them cannot be blamed.

Or maybe those killed cannot be held truly responsible. After all, those who went out and got themselves killed obviously were not like us, normal people who can think and act for ourselves and have our own experiences and self-directed intentions. Someone only has to say to them, “Go” and they all like crazed mindless hate-filled creatures get up and go to kill — obviously they only planned to kill — those who have tried so hard to be so good to them and give up so much to make peace with them.

It is impossible for normal people like us to ever truly understand such sub-human creatures. If only they had a religion that taught love then they would live happily and in peace.

And I used to believe progress was inevitable over the years. How naive I was.

58 Comments

  • Lowen Gartner
    2018-05-14 23:47:04 UTC - 23:47 | Permalink

    How is it possible that the world didn’t learn from South Africa!

  • Bob Jase
    2018-05-15 01:02:11 UTC - 01:02 | Permalink

    I’d say the Jews learned a lot about genocide from the Holocaust but I’ve read the OT and genocide is a proud old tradition for them.

    • Bob de Jong
      2018-05-15 21:44:53 UTC - 21:44 | Permalink

      I object to this remark of Bob Jase. Say what you think about the incidents at the border of Gaza, fine. But to say that Jews are inclined towards genocide because of their religion sounds like anti-semitism to me.

      • Neil Godfrey
        2018-05-15 21:53:25 UTC - 21:53 | Permalink

        I was struggling with the comment, too. I trust and hope Bob did not mean it the way it came out.

      • Yam
        2018-05-16 04:32:18 UTC - 04:32 | Permalink

        To me sounds like that he read the O.T.

        • Bob Jase
          2018-05-16 12:15:54 UTC - 12:15 | Permalink

          Yep. And the whole present situation is based on that bronze age mythology, there never was a ‘great’ kingdom of Israel.

          • Yam
            2018-05-17 05:02:19 UTC - 05:02 | Permalink

            This mythology is a hellenistic creation, with settings on bronze age and iron age. Treating the jewish pseudohistory as more ancient, damages all the studies about the spread of dogmatisms. It must be studied along with communism and nazism.

          • Bob de Jong
            2018-05-17 09:50:07 UTC - 09:50 | Permalink

            There is solid archeological evidence for the existence of the kingdom of Israel in the ninth century BCE. See the ‘Mesha stele’, which recounts the battle of a Moabite king against the king of Israel; or Assyrian documrents talking about the house of Israel.

            • Bob Jase
              2018-05-17 12:41:42 UTC - 12:41 | Permalink

              Technically the stone doesn’t mention Israel – the biblical stories are read into it by believers.

              • Bob de Jong
                2018-05-17 21:58:19 UTC - 21:58 | Permalink

                Translation of line 3-5 of the Mesha stele: ‘[3] Omri was the king of Israel, and he oppressed Moab for many days, for Kemoš was angry with his land. ’ So clearly mentions Israel.

              • Neil Godfrey
                2018-05-17 23:52:05 UTC - 23:52 | Permalink

                Archaeology has confirmed the existence of an ancient kingdom of Israel in the northern part of Palestine centred around Samaria. See http://vridar.info/bibarch/arch/davies5.htm for a list of the relevant finds.

  • 2018-05-15 04:40:03 UTC - 04:40 | Permalink

    What is that quote from?

    • Neil Godfrey
      2018-05-15 06:04:53 UTC - 06:04 | Permalink

      Me. I started out sarcastically setting out all the tired excuses and apologies but decided to turn them into “quoted thoughts” lest someone took my words as a serious statement of what I thought.

  • JoeFormerlyofBKLYN
    2018-05-15 10:59:00 UTC - 10:59 | Permalink

    In my opinion — which has changed over a 64-year-long life — human beings have not really evolved.

    There’s not much you can expect from humans, is there?

    In groups, they are frightening (see: Charlottesville VA).

    As countries, they are idiotic (see: Western powers make a mess out of Libya, seemingly just for the hell of it).

    As individuals, they are incredibly untrustworthy. I still can’t get over the fact that — after listening to his debates with Hillary in 2008 — I voted enthusiastically (twice) for Barack Obama. He claimed he was for PEACE. He got a Nobel Prize for Peace. And then: He left office after having enthusiastically entered us into SEVEN WARS.

    I come to this blog (daily — and, by the way, Thank You!) to read up on how the heck we all got this way. I have come to think religion IS a huge part of the problem. I didn’t always believe this; at one point I was a silent atheist.

    No longer.

    Yes, the Old Test. profiles a lot of genocide and a violent, miserable “God” — but it’s thousands of years old. It’s telling on the US of A that I live in a state called Virginia, where one heavily travelled local highway carries the name “Jefferson Davis.”

    You can listen to the radio and hear (regularly) commercials telling you to come to this doctor or that restaurant — and giving the location as “Jefferson Davis Highway.” My stomach routinely turned as a resuilt.

    It’s tradition for humans to act in this ignorant manner. Jesus, Paul, and the guy who wrote the book of Revelation expected the end to come soon. It didn’t. You would think people would stay away from their “religion” in droves!

    In any realistic assessment of these guys and their thinking — perhaps a Tweet from Donald J. Trump? — they are a bunch of Losers! Or, at the very least, they were very, very, very wrong.

    Ditto Jefferson Davis, Robert E. Lee, Stonewall Jackson, and their compadres. They fought to keep in place the enslavement of millions of people. How is this not discussed in every single paragraph of Civil War History?

    Yet where I live, there is all kinds of crap named for them. Please do not overlook this. Religion and “The Lose Cause” of the US Civil War GO TOGETHER like peanut butter and jelly.

    SO: Losing and Being Very Wrong are not disqualifications — for the religious.

    [And if you want a heavy dose of religious insanity, go learn about Stonewall Jackson! Admired because he fought well. For what? For keeping millions in chains!!!]

    It is disappointing to me, as I make my way out of this life, to see that progress is not only NOT being made on important fronts — but is actively resisted. Would it be that way if religion was given — by the billions — exactly the credibility it deserves?

    We now have indoor plumbing, cars that drive themselves, and Beyonce. You might think we could have already gotten beyond superstition.

    • Neil Godfrey
      2018-05-15 21:57:38 UTC - 21:57 | Permalink

      “You know, I’ve known a long time that if you want to understand.human nature the best objects for study are the apes and the other mammals. I now add a third group, the very old.”

      Spoken by “Vridar” in Vardis Fisher’s The Great Confession, book 2 of Orphans of Gethsemane (p. 488f)

  • 2018-05-15 11:20:07 UTC - 11:20 | Permalink

    Is it too obvious to point out the irony that the right-wing Fundamentalists who base their spiritual life around an anti-occupationalist executed in Palestine on a Roman torture device 2,000 years ago now support torture and the summary execution of anti-occupationalist Palestinians?

  • Vinny
    2018-05-15 15:58:09 UTC - 15:58 | Permalink

    If you are going to claim someone else’s country for yourself, it’s best if you carry diseases to which they have no immunities. The fewer of them that you need to kill by military action, the better. In addition, doing it before the advent of electronic communication is a plus.

  • The Bomb
    2018-05-15 20:50:26 UTC - 20:50 | Permalink

    I wonder what would happen if Israel would allow the Return Home March to happen on its soil. I think hundreds of thousands of Palestinians would follow the protesters and haphazardly settle themselves in Israel. Hamas and other groups will try to make use of the situation to attack Israelis. For Israel, removing them forcibly again from Israel would cause an international outcry.

    This is a very difficult situation for Israel, either way it shoots at civilians, or it will be the end of Israel as a Jewish state, and possibly the end of the Jewish presence in Israel in the long term.

    Hamas knows this. I think it hopes that the international outcry is so big, that Israel is put under heavy pressure to allow the protesters in.

    Maybe Israel could try to use water cannons instead of guns.

    • Neil Godfrey
      2018-05-15 21:43:30 UTC - 21:43 | Permalink

      Israel has been known to use legal crowd control technologies when their authorities confront Jewish protestors. I seem to recall them doing so when they forcibly evacuated settlers from Gaza years back. Their choice to kill Arab protestors is not forced on them by dilemma.

      But you are right about them facing a dilemma if they want to preserve a state for one religion and one race. Once again, the lessons of South Africa are ignored. Democracy is incompatible with a race-based state.

      • The Bomb
        2018-05-15 21:57:12 UTC - 21:57 | Permalink

        Were the Jewish protesters so violent? I remember videos of Jewish settlers being taken away, literally being lifted up and carried away. Person per person. Settlers screaming and struggling. In that case, Israeli soldiers should go into Gaza and arrest Palestinian protesters the same way. But the Palestinians will fight back. I wonder if the Jewish settlers ever fought back so ferociously.

        If Israel allows the return of Palestinian refugees, israel will turn from a Jewish apartheid state into an Islamic apartheid state. I am certain of that. Sharia is now all the hype for Palestinians.

        • Neil Godfrey
          2018-05-15 22:02:02 UTC - 22:02 | Permalink

          I am not aware that Islamist clerics have won the hearts of most Palestinians.

        • The Bomb
          2018-05-15 22:14:40 UTC - 22:14 | Permalink

          Hamas won the elections. Hamas wants the establishment of sharia law. And the proposed constitution of Palestine is based on sharia law. Sharia shall be the main source of legislation:

          https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_law

          • Neil Godfrey
            2018-05-15 23:06:21 UTC - 23:06 | Permalink

            Your apparent interpretation of such things is at odds with mine. I think we need to learn as much as we can about the history and current situation before drawing certain conclusions from mass media reports of decontextualized details.

          • The Bomb
            2018-05-16 05:45:04 UTC - 05:45 | Permalink

            Here is some information from the Pew Research Center: http://www.pewforum.org/2013/04/30/the-worlds-muslims-religion-politics-society-beliefs-about-sharia/

            89 percent of Palestinian Muslims wants to make Sharia the law of the land. 84 percent of those Palestinian Muslims who support Sharia law supports stoning as a punishment for theft and 66 supports the death penalty for leaving Islam.

            But I understand you believe this might be the result of Western colonialism, Western support of Arab dictatorships and Israeli policy. Otherwise Palestine and other Islamic nations would be healthy democracies such as Sweden or Danmark.

            • The Bomb
              2018-05-16 05:46:07 UTC - 05:46 | Permalink

              Theft should be adultery.

            • Neil Godfrey
              2018-05-18 12:22:20 UTC - 12:22 | Permalink

              I have discussed such misleading and unjustifiable extrapolations from polling data a number of times. My point is all the more necessary to address the ignorance that misused polling data supports. Please read more widely, read about the studies of Palestine and Israel, read the research into Hamas, read the current studies and accounts of Hamas and Palestinians.

            • The Bomb
              2018-05-18 18:45:17 UTC - 18:45 | Permalink

              I think you mean that the fundamentalism of the Palestinians is a reaction to Israeli policies and past Western colonialism. If it is true, it will take several decades before this fundamentalism wanes away. If Israel respects international law and allows all refugees to return right now, Israel will turn into an Islamic theocracy with all non-Muslims and women being second class citizens. There are more than 5 million Palestinian refugees under the UNRWA mandate. There are roughly 1,6 million Israeli Arabs, and 6,5 Israeli Jews. Add the 5 million Palestinian refugees to the Israeli population and Israel will become an Arab-majority state. Keeping in mind that Arabs have a higher birthrate, their majority will grow even further. Furthermore, terrorist organizations such as the Fatah (PLO), Hamas and Islamic Jihad would be able to settle themselves right into Israel, which will make terrorist attacks against Jews very easy.

              I have read your posts about Islamic fundamentalism being a reaction to Western imperialism. If that is true, why was there Islamic fundamentalism before the rise of the West? How did Islam spread? How can you explain the rise of religious fundamentalism in the world in general? Why are there so many Jewish and Christian fundamentalists right now? The orthodox Jews right now have so many kids that it is expected that they will become a majority in Israel by 2050. If oppression causes fundamentalism, are the orthodox Jews angry at being oppressed and that is the reason why they are fundamentalists? If so, by whom are they oppressed? How can you explain the rise of anti-immigration parties in the rich Western countries? Are the voters of those parties oppressed? How can you explain the right-wing extremist Likud winning the elections in Israel?

              Why the Hamas exists? The Hamas has branched off from the Muslim Brotherhood. At first the Muslims Brotherhood was a terrorist group, but they have changed their strategy. Hamas was a social aid organization at first, but started to commit terrorist attacks later on. The Muslim Brotherhood and Hamas both aim at establishing Sharia Law worldwide. Hamas wants to focus on the destruction of Israel for the time being, but once that has been accomplished, is planning to join other radical Islamic groups and try to conquer the world.

              Sorry, I have laid low for a while, discussing about Islamic fundamentalism and Muslims with you.

              We talked about me meeting Muslims. I actually have met an Iraqi young woman. I asked her if she knew about the writers Ibn Ishaq and Bukhari. She said that Bukhari is a very delicious dish, and asked if I liked it too!!!! She had never read to Quran, and asked me where she could read it and how to understand it. I referred her to some Sunni websites and Sunni Quranic commentators. She turned out to be a Shiite. She knows nothing of Islam.

        • mrquestioner
          2018-05-16 15:18:18 UTC - 15:18 | Permalink

          “the bomb” did moses exist? are you jewish believer in the torah?

          • The Bomb
            2018-05-16 15:27:22 UTC - 15:27 | Permalink

            I believe Moses didn’t exist. But I think King David did exist. There is the so-called Tel Dan Stele. I think Jewish history actually begins under King David’s leadership. He united several local tribes under one nation. Later story tellers concocted up a fake history about Adam, Abraham and Moses.

            • Yam
              2018-05-17 04:55:42 UTC - 04:55 | Permalink

              The so-called Tel Dan Stele does not prove that the tall tales of the OT are historical, in reality does not prove anything at all. Also the books of kings claim that the validity of their claims in several passages, comes from the use of the chronicles of Israel (Samaria) and Judea. In fact the books of the Kings expose that it was written in a time when they were able to claim the land. So David is like Moses, fictional character.

            • The Bomb
              2018-05-17 05:52:34 UTC - 05:52 | Permalink

              Yam, who do you think is the first real historical (Jewish) character in the bible? It must have started somewhere? Was it Simon Thassi of the Hasmonean kingdom? Surely that kingdom is historical. Or did Judaism start during the Babylonian exile, a group of people starting to long back to a nation they never came from?

              • Yam
                2018-05-17 06:19:16 UTC - 06:19 | Permalink

                The problem is that we confuse historical names with historical characters. Cause a name existed this does not means that the depicted character is accurate.
                As I said, in the books of Kings is stated clearly that the chronicles of Israel (Samaria) and Judea were used. This means that many of the names in the tales may be accurate, but this does not prove the tales.
                Judaism is a proselytizing religion and they used the conversion of slaves for their expansion, this means a quick spread of this religion, this is a very crucial fact to examine when this religion created, and in my opinion it was created around the Maccabees.

              • The Bomb
                2018-05-17 06:41:03 UTC - 06:41 | Permalink

                So king David and the house of Israel could have existed but have nothing to do with Judaism. Maybe the Jews hijacked the historical David and historical Israel and co-opted these into their religion.

      • Roger Lambert
        2018-05-16 13:17:36 UTC - 13:17 | Permalink

        ” a state for one religion and one race”

        You know that there have always been plenty of Muslim Arab Israelis? That they have representation in the Knesset? That they are full citizens? That they are almost 21% of the population?

        That there are about 170,000 Christian Israelis, about 2% of the population?

  • Neil Godfrey
    2018-05-15 23:32:56 UTC - 23:32 | Permalink

    Interview with Amnesty International representative Magda Mughrabi in Jerusalem: https://iview.abc.net.au/programs/7-30/NC1801H078S00#playing

    At 4.20

    Under international law the use of live ammunition should only be used as a means of last resort in order to protect life when there is an imminent threat. What we have seen yesterday is not a situation where Palestinian protestors have been posing an imminent threat to life.

    At 4:50

    Under international law the use of live ammunition is only permitted when there is an imminent threat. It is hard to imagine how Israel can justify that people who were on the other side of the fence could be posing an imminent threat to the lives of the Israeli soldiers who were well protected, wearing full protective gear, as well as being protected with drones, arms and military vehicles.

    At 6:10

    This is really a turning point and we have to all stand up. People, ordinary people, like you and I and your viewers, have to stand up and pressure their governments to take some form of action and pressure Israel to stop its violation against Palestinian people.

    • Roger Lambert
      2018-05-16 13:25:42 UTC - 13:25 | Permalink

      Protesters? On a single day, over about a ninety minute span, there were six detonations of explosive devices.

      This is not a protest. It is a deliberate riot taking place outside the Gaza border, past a buffer zone, against a security fence. They are trying to kill Jews (what a shock), and have been doing it now for month. I have not seen data from the last few weeks, but in the first couple of weeks, most of the Palestinians shot dead were known terrorists.

      There are two sides to this story, not one.

      • Grabrich
        2018-05-16 17:15:06 UTC - 17:15 | Permalink

        Roger, with all due respect, how could you possibly know that “most of the Palestinians shot dead were known terrorists”? Where is this “data”, and who put it out?

        If it was put out by the Israeli gov’t (or a pro-Israeli person/group), then I would suggest that people take those claims/allegations with a huge grain of salt. Where is the evidence? What about the persons shot who weren’t “known terrorists”?

        The alleged terrorists could have been captured and put on trial, rather than shot & killed by snipers. But instead, the IDF exacerbated the situation, resulting in even more violence.

        Richard G.

        • Gilbert Schwarz
          2018-05-17 10:25:52 UTC - 10:25 | Permalink

          It’s 50 oft oft 62 people killed on Monday and Tuesday. This was confirmed by a Hamas spokesperson to counter the claim that Hamas was only leading people (esp. children) into death without suffering themselves.

          But that‘s really only hairsplitting. It‘s not important whether 50 or 20 or even no Hamas guys were killed. What‘s important is that Hamas orchestrated the whole thing: the riots, the attacks, the number of people participating, etc. They must have known what would happen and did it to get exactly these results – dead people and Western „Israel critics“ in outrage.

          Israel is not to blame. Hamas is to blame, first and foremost. And certain people in the West are to blame too, as the whole thing was done specifically to trigger them. Think about it. Don‘t turn yourself into a Hamas sock puppet.

          • Bob Jase
            2018-05-17 12:35:09 UTC - 12:35 | Permalink

            And women who were raped were asking for it, right?

            • Gilbert Schwarz
              2018-05-17 13:35:30 UTC - 13:35 | Permalink

              That’s a very strange leap, right there, Bob. Strawman, whataboutism, insinuation, association fallacy, all in one. So in your imagination, the Hamas is equivalent to women wearing miniskirts?

              Meanwhile, the riots – and the killing – have stopped after Egypt summoned a Hamas leader.

          • Neil Godfrey
            2018-05-18 12:26:25 UTC - 12:26 | Permalink

            This is dehumanizing the Palestinians, turning them into mindless puppets whose strings are being pulled to make them go out and provoke the good guys into killing them. Who organized the march is irrelevant to how the Israeli soldiers responded.

            • Grabrich
              2018-05-18 19:49:30 UTC - 19:49 | Permalink

              Ditto Neil’s comment.

              Richard G.

            • Gilbert Schwarz
              2018-05-19 22:27:21 UTC - 22:27 | Permalink

              I strongly disagree. It’s not dehumanizing to point out that if you go to war – voluntarily! – you might die. On the contrary, it’s patronizing to assume that Palestinians are some kind of innocent children of the Wild that don’t know what they are doing and what they are risking.

              And please, don’t give us the “unarmed and marching peacefully”. Sure, there were plenty of people protesting peacefully, even at the Israel/Gaza border. But these were not the people killed. There are plenty of videos and accounts from both sides of the conflict that show clearly what was going on at the border fence. There were no deaths at the demonstrations in Israel, there were no deaths at the protests in the West Bank. The only deaths occured where people were attacking Israel and its army with violence and terror, at the order/instigation of Hamas.

              And concerning the amount of people killed: please bear in mind that all these numbers might stem from Hamas controlled sources. We should be careful basing any arguments on these numbers.

              • Gilbert Schwarz
                2018-05-19 22:54:19 UTC - 22:54 | Permalink

                PS: One more thing. Wherever is war, there is brutalization, there are atrocities, there are civilians killed, there are innocent people harmed. I won’t try to justify each and every killing done by the Israeli army and I’m not arguing that every Israeli soldier behaved ideally. That’s why I think – contrary to what you say, Neil – that it’s of the utmost importance who started these acts of war, and why. And it’s known who did: Hamas. I’m really perplexed how you have avoided mentioning them even once, in all your posts here. Ignoring something won’t make it disappear, you know.

      • Neil Godfrey
        2018-05-18 12:32:20 UTC - 12:32 | Permalink

        It is simply absurd to assert that most of the Palestinians shot were “known terrorists”. That is patently untrue.

        How do 6 explosions justify killing so many Palestinians? 6 explosions sounds like there were some exceptions to the general mass of people we can all see were unarmed and marching peacefully towards the fence.

  • Gilbert Schwarz
    2018-05-16 10:26:15 UTC - 10:26 | Permalink

    Did she have something to say about the cause of all this – Hamas willingly leading their own people into death?

  • Neil Godfrey
    2018-05-17 09:25:36 UTC - 09:25 | Permalink
  • Grabrich
    2018-05-20 02:37:55 UTC - 02:37 | Permalink

    For readers interested in a perspective differing from the Israeli gov’t/IDF, I recommend checking out the following groups/websites. And no, none of them are Hamas linked. They are all primarily Jewish and/or (non-gov’t) Israeli:

    https://www.btselem.org/

    https://jewishvoiceforpeace.org/

    http://www.breakingthesilence.org.il/

    http://mondoweiss.net/

    Richard G.

    • Gilbert Schwarz
      2018-05-20 10:12:20 UTC - 10:12 | Permalink

      Do you recommend these websites? Would you say that – by and large – they are right in their views?

      • Grabrich
        2018-05-20 17:24:13 UTC - 17:24 | Permalink

        Going by the “About” statements, and the articles that I’ve read, I do find myself agreeing with their views (by and large). I’ve also seen some of their videos and interviews, and again, I can’t find much that I disagree with.

        I think that these specific groups/organizations are more “Left”-leaning (though I could be wrong), which is interesting, because I don’t consider myself leftist/liberal (nor rightist/conservative, for that matter).

        Richard G.

        • Gilbert Schwarz
          2018-05-20 21:18:28 UTC - 21:18 | Permalink

          Thanks. I think B’tselem and BTS are important, yet not unbiased voices. The two American websites though are openly hostile to Israel as a whole. One endorses BDS (“kauft nicht beim Juden”), the other one demands the “return” of all “refugees” (which would effectively destroy Israel as a Jewish state).

          • Lowen Gartner
            2018-05-20 21:27:00 UTC - 21:27 | Permalink

            “which would effectively destroy Israel as a Jewish state”

            Why is it important to sustain a Jewish state? Especially when the means is not allowing refugees to return home?

            • Gilbert Schwarz
              2018-05-20 23:44:03 UTC - 23:44 | Permalink

              I‘m sorry, I can‘t help you.

            • The Bomb
              2018-05-21 04:55:04 UTC - 04:55 | Permalink

              If all Arab refugees return, Israel will become an Arab majority state, Sharia will be established, Jews and women will become second-class citizens, and terrorist groups such as Hamas can freely establish themselves among the Jews, making attacks on Jews very easy. Possibly there also will be a new holocaust, and/or all Jews will simply be expelled.

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