2016-12-17

Lena Einhorn discusses her Shift in Time hypothesis

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by Neil Godfrey

For earlier discussions on this blog of Lena’s argument see:

 

11 Comments

  • 2016-12-19 13:43:32 UTC - 13:43 | Permalink

    I think I have a much stronger case for shifting the time period of Jesus back to 70s B.C. I would very much like to see this theory reviewed on your site:

    http://lost-history.com/introduction.php

    Jeff Q.

    • Neil Godfrey
      2016-12-19 20:38:12 UTC - 20:38 | Permalink

      When time permits. I have read similar arguments by G.R.S. Mead (1903) and Alvar Ellegard (1999).

      • 2016-12-20 00:14:07 UTC - 00:14 | Permalink

        My theory is built off of Mead and Ellegard, but I try to bring Yeshu fully into history by identifying him with Honi the Circle Drawer, who had an almost identical legend about being caught and executed on Passover and then hung on a carob tree, harbinging Jerusalem being conquered by a Roman army. Both Yeshu and Honi also have an identical nemesis, Simeon ben Shetah. Onias III, temple high priest & Messiah of Daniel, also shows legacy of Zadokite martyrdom. Also, Jesus refuses to give away a secret to the temple priests about what gives him the authority but the Parable of the Vineyard implies an ownership of the Temple that would only make sense if he was connected the original Zadokite Temple keepers, the Oniads.

    • MrHorse
      2017-01-10 01:17:54 UTC - 01:17 | Permalink

      The NT-Jesus could reflect borrowing information from both the 1st century b.c. [bce] and from the mid-late 1st century a.d. [c.e.] -ie. the NT-Jesus could be a compilation based on several other narratives.

  • 2016-12-30 00:05:05 UTC - 00:05 | Permalink

    I actually thought about this shift in time about 10 decades later too. I read in Josephus (can’t remember exactly what chapter at the moment) that three criminals or zelotes were executed, and two of them were named Simon and James.

    I always thought that was kind of odd and coincidental, considering those are the names of two of the so-called pillars, and Jesus in the gospels was executed alongside two other criminals.

    • Neil Godfrey
      2017-01-02 00:27:24 UTC - 00:27 | Permalink

      Agreed. Something seems to be going on. I don’t think we have enough evidence to finally determine exactly what, though.

    • Greg Pandatshang
      2017-01-02 02:26:12 UTC - 02:26 | Permalink

      Apparently, Simon was the most common masculine name for Jews in 1st century Palestine, and yet it appears even more frequently in Mark than one would expect on that basis (there are five persons named Simon mentioned in Mark). Of course, I’m not saying it appears so frequently that it couldn’t still be due to coincidence.

      P.S. Sorry to nitpick, but just wanted to point out that there’s no one described as a pillar and named as Simon. The pillar in question is Cephas, or Peter in a couple verses.

  • LOWEN GATRNER
    2017-01-09 20:07:18 UTC - 20:07 | Permalink

    Has this blog speculated why, in the scenario where the gospels were written in the 2nd century intentionally creating an earthly Jesus out of a then-to-fore spiritual one, the gospel authors had Jesus indicate that “this generation will not pass away until all these things take place” when clearly it had?

    • MrHorse
      2017-01-10 01:42:22 UTC - 01:42 | Permalink

      I think Matt 24:34 should be considered in the context of Matt 24 as a whole.

      The start of Matt 24:-
      1 Jesus left the temple and was walking away when his disciples came up to him to call his attention to its buildings. 2 “Do you see all these things?” he asked. “Truly I tell you, not one stone here will be left on another; every one will be thrown down.”

      3 As Jesus was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to him privately. “Tell us,” they said, “when will this happen, and what will be the sign of your coming and of the end of the age?”

      4 Jesus answered: “Watch out that no one deceives you. 5 For many will come in my name, claiming, ‘I am the Messiah,’ and will deceive many. 6 You will hear of wars and rumors of wars, but see to it that you are not alarmed. Such things must happen, but the end is still to come. 7 Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. There will be famines and earthquakes in various places. 8 All these are the beginning of birth pains.

      9 “Then you will be handed over to be persecuted and put to death, and you will be hated by all nations because of me. 10 At that time many will turn away from the faith and will betray and hate each other, 11 and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people.

      I think that’s history being re-written as “prophecy” -ie. in the context of supposedly being early 1st century commentary by Jesus, before the fall of the Temple, it appears to be prophecy, or it is easier to portray it as prophecy.

      I think 24:5 – “many will come in my name, claiming, ‘I am the Messiah,’ and will deceive many” – is reference to Simon Bar Kochba.

      I think 24:11 – “many false prophets will appear and deceive many people.” – is reference to the competition among 2nd century prophets competing to establish their version of Christianity when there really was not any orthodoxy.

      Likewise, I think Matt 24:15-21 –

      15 “So when you see standing in the holy place ‘the abomination that causes desolation,’[a] spoken of through the prophet Daniel —let the reader understand— 16 then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. 17 Let no one on the housetop go down to take anything out of the house. 18 Let no one in the field go back to get their cloak. 19 How dreadful it will be in those days for pregnant women and nursing mothers! 20 Pray that your flight will not take place in winter or on the Sabbath. 21 For then there will be great distress, unequalled from the beginning of the world until now —and never to be equalled again.

      refers to removal of the Jewish people from Jerusalem & Judea after 134/5 a.d./c.e.

      [a] refers to Daniel 9:27; 11:31; 12:11.

      Matt 24:23-26 –

      23 At that time if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Messiah!’ or, ‘There he is!’ do not believe it. 24 For false messiahs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect. 25 See, I have told you ahead of time.

      26 “So if anyone tells you, ‘There he is, out in the wilderness,’ do not go out; or, ‘Here he is, in the inner rooms,’ do not believe it.

      – is also reference to Simon Bar Kochba (and possibly others before or after him).

      • LOWEN GATRNER
        2017-01-10 15:45:23 UTC - 15:45 | Permalink

        Thank you

      • Neil Godfrey
        2017-01-13 22:54:08 UTC - 22:54 | Permalink

        Another viewpoint that I find attractive:

        “All those things” that were to take place were described in the metaphors of the prophets in earlier writings. Isaiah, for example, spoke of falling stars to refer to conquered kingdoms; in Samuel and Psalms we read of God coming down in the clouds in contexts that are clearly not meant to be read literally. It is this apocalyptic metaphorical language that we find in Mark 13. The “end” came with the destruction of Jerusalem; the Son of Man came to dwell with his elect as the replacement kingdom from that same event. As for “seeing” all these things, recall that Jesus had spoken of those with the ability to “see” but who “see not”. Even “seeing” is a metaphor, a kind of parable — as is the entire gospel.

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